Scars We Both Carry: Healing Together After Prison

Coming home is only the beginning.

In this heartfelt continuation of our conversation on metaphorical scars, Remie and Debbie sit down together to talk honestly about what healing looks like from both sides of the reentry experience. Remie shares what it's like to live with Post-Incarceration Syndrome and the lingering emotional wounds of survival. Debbie offers the perspective of a partner learning how to love without control, hold space without losing herself, and navigate her own growth edges along the way.

This episode explores the tools they've learned, the rituals they’ve created, and the laughter that now anchors their healing journey. It’s about choosing connection over correction—and legacy over shame.

🗣️ “The scars used to lead the way. Now, they ride in the back seat.”
🗣️ “Love without tools will wear you out.”

Whether you’ve come home or you’re loving someone who has—this episode is for you.

🎧 Listen wherever you get your podcasts or at lockdown2legacy.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome and Episode Introduction
• 3:58 Vigilance and Security as Survival
• 7:27 Learning to Navigate Each Other's Triggers
• 13:21 Time Management Struggles Post-Prison
• 19:26 Surveillance vs Safety in Relationship
• 26:01 Accepting Help and Letting People In
• 35:07 Healing Strategies and Shared Rituals
• 44:25 Healing as a Journey, Not a Destination
• 47:31 Closing Reflections and Questions

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:04

Hey y'all, welcome back to another episode of Lockdown to Legacy, where we speak truth, share stories and build bridges between incarceration and healing. I am your co-host, debbie Jones, and today's episode is a continuation of a conversation that really struck a chord with so many of you. And I'm not here alone. Remy's here with me. He's not just a co-host, but my partner in life and healing, and he's here to share his perspectives the real, the raw and the firsthand. Do you want to say hi, mr Jones?

Speaker 2: 1:38

Hey, what's up? Everybody Glad to be back. And yeah, this one was personal, because when people talk about coming home, they usually only talk about the freedom aspect. But it's not always just about that. It's about what it feels like to come home and still be carrying the prison in your nervous system or in your sleep, or even in your silence.

Speaker 1: 1:54

Right. So if you're new to us this week, I encourage you to hit pause here and go back to my solo soad this last week, where we broke down what metaphorical scars are. So in part one, we talked about those invisible wounds that incarceration leaves behind, and I will be referring to those throughout, kind of as those metaphorical scars. We explored how those scars show up in the body, in relationships, in the daily rhythms of post-prison life, but that healing isn't a one-way street. It's something we do in relationship and with each other. So it was important for me to bring Remy back this week so that we could do this together and go a little bit deeper.

Speaker 1: 2:32

So this is the part two. If you hadn't listened to part one, you can jump in here too, but I just encourage you to go back if you want some extra tips and some more context and history with that. So in the Scars we Carry, it's not just about the person who served time. It's about the people who love them, who walk beside them and who are trying to heal too. Are you ready?

Speaker 2: 2:53

I am ready. I'll start here, all right. So one of the hardest things about being out is realizing that you're not really out, at least not always. I mean you can always find yourself drifting back into those old habits that you use for protection, I mean, as Debbie talked about in this last episode. I mean, sometimes you're just like entering into an unfamiliar space and the people just the presence of a large group of people is like super uncomfortable, you know, the presence of a large group of people is like super uncomfortable, you know.

Speaker 2: 3:31

Or going out to eat at a restaurant and having to eat with your back to the wall or facing the door, you know, I mean I can honestly say that some of this stuff is kind of like I've kind of done away with. I don't I don't have to have my back to the wall or or facing the door anymore. But I can promise you that I'm very much aware of everybody who's coming and going and everybody who's walking around me. So a lot of times I kind of feel guilty like I'm not giving the people that I'm sitting in front of my full attention, because my eyes are constantly darting around. You know, have you noticed that about me?

Speaker 1: 4:07

Yeah, that's why I did a whole episode about it.

Speaker 2: 4:09

Oh yeah, yeah, I forgot this is a part two. So yeah, I mean I don't know if people are dealing with the paranoia factor. I personally have some friends who have dealt with that anxiety coming home, with the paranoia and everything. I mean you got to remember that on the inside, with the paranoia and everything. I mean you got to remember that on the inside and, to some degree, before prison. I don't want to make this all about prison, because I had a life before prison that always required me to be vigilant and in my personal life now I still see the scars of that. Like Debbie will tell you, I am the security conscious person in the house. I am always the one that goes around and locks all the doors at night. I'm the one who got us an alarm system, just stuff like that. What do you got?

Speaker 1: 5:02

No, stay alert, stay live. I think that that's a biological wired-in factor. It'll take a long time to undo that, even if you can right. I think from the opposite perspective, as somebody who's watching, that sometimes it is heartbreaking, not because I want you to just get over it or anything like that, that's not the mentality but I do want you to feel safe. So I've had to learn that your survival strategies aren't about me, like your desire to make sure that every door is locked and check it twice and is the security system working, and all of those things are not about me. They're about protection. But sometimes, I'll be honest, that's hard. It's hard to, you know, kind of see those emotions rear their head, or it's hard to kind of ask questions or feel like I'm triggering an entire defense system in yourself. And it's important then for me to do some introspection and check in with self too, like am I being supportive? Am I being too much? How am I helping? How am I contributing?

Speaker 2: 6:17

what's inside of my control and outside of my control. So I think that that's always the thing that I'm weighing. You know, she is the let me do some research on this subject. She is the one who brought this post-incarceration syndrome into the picture, whereas me, I'm the one who has the lived experience and that's how I learn best how they come off to other people. I mean, to be honest, sometimes I don't even care how they come off to other people.

Speaker 2: 6:52

It's not until the problem is blatant and in front of me that I say, okay, let me go back and analyze the situation, which is how I learned most of my life lessons. It's like going back, reflecting on retrospection, introspection, stuff like that that's how I learn. And to hear you bring all this stuff in like, hey, here's an article, hey, there's a like, it's an actual thing. That's very helpful to me and I feel like it could be helpful to a lot of other people who may be like me, who are just bumping all the roadblocks and the obstacles in the road and then saying, okay, how can I do that better next time?

Speaker 1: 7:28

Yeah, it's the normalization of it that I think is important, like it's a real thing.

Speaker 1: 7:35

It's not that you're broken, it's not institutionalized, it's not any of these other harmful connotations, and it's not even post-traumatic stress disorder, like that's a completely different thing. I think that's what was important to me in kind of bringing this episode together and talking about it. It's been a conversation you and I have had a lot in our marriage because, like you said earlier, I don't want to make it all about prison either. I've had things to unlearn too. I've had to stop treating every conversation like a check-in or a report, and it was important to me to learn how to breathe and pause and listen, not just fix, because these metaphorical scars are not just yours. Being the person who holds space for that kind of thing is a pain, but it changes you too. It stretches your capacity and some days stretches you to the edge. So I think it's important that we kind of think through what that looks like and I appreciate that we're kind of doing this episode and being vulnerable and talking about ourselves and our relationship to hopefully help other people too.

Speaker 2: 8:39

Yeah, I mean it's great that we have this outlet to talk because really, like, every episode is kind of like going to therapy, to be honest, you know, and I get a chance to really look at what's going on in my life and share that so that we can all learn from it, not just you guys and me being a teacher, but me being a learner and sharing my learning experience.

Speaker 2: 9:05

So when I think about, and so when I think about our relationship or the relationship of someone who has these scars and the person who's, as the person coming on from prison or, you know, with the scars, don't like to see ourselves as victims, you know, or or as being, you know, hurt or traumatized or anything like that, because there's a certain stigma to it and we feel like, oh, I have to be fixed, but it is nice to be able to recognize, like man, I've, I've been through some shit, you know. You know, like growing up and now seeing the stuff that I went through growing up and now being in our relationship and saying, oh, it's just a cultural difference.

Speaker 2: 10:05

You know, I say that a lot Like man. We just I grew up different, but that's an easy write-off, you know that's an easy write-off, so I don't have to face what it is that I actually went through growing up and I mean there's a lot. I can't lie man. I mean at first I thought, ah, there's a couple of things I could talk about, but to be honest, it goes deep.

Speaker 1: 10:33

Yeah, I think that healing is. It's not just about surviving the past, it's about building something different in the present.

Speaker 2: 10:57

I mean there's so much to unlearn and relearn, and there's so many new avenues and better ways to handle certain situations that I've never thought of, and so I'm glad I get to do it with you, babe.

Speaker 1: 11:01

Yeah, I will be vulnerable here. I can share some I've been trying to call them growth edges. That is, some social emotional learning shifting right. It's not just a pain point, it's a what am I growing through? Shout out to friend of the podcast, kevin Gilmore that's his phrase grow through it.

Speaker 1: 11:19

So things that I had to learn is that love doesn't mean micromanaging. I am somebody who I like structure a little bit less than you do. I like routine a little bit less than you. I'm a more impulsive person but I do like a very organized house. I guess I find routine and like okay, this is what we do at this time, this is what time the kids go to bed and I'm the person who knows when all of the things happen, and sometimes that comes off as micromanaging and I have had to learn that that also can then sound like surveillance and you and I did that for a long time was talk about feeling surveilled by somebody. So I really had to pause and do some introspection about like, am I creating safety or am I recreating control, and that was not my aim as a partner.

Speaker 2: 12:21

Yeah, like, to be honest, I love routine, like that is my jam. But because I did so much time in prison, my routine is pretty much 24 hours. If it doesn't fit inside this 24 hours, it'll completely throw me off. If you start telling me about what I have to do next week, next month, six months from now, I'm like, yeah, okay. And then it will start to approach and I'll be like, oh yeah, it's still, you know, a month out, yeah, okay, all right, it's still two weeks out, yeah, okay. But like, if it doesn't fit in my 24 hours, it'll be 24 hours away and I'm like, oh shit, I didn't do that thing, you know? Um, when it comes to like routine, that's how you get through prison, because if you focus on the time of I got this coming up in six months or this coming up in two months, like it just feels so big to go into a prison and say I got 10 years and oh, I can do this thing in five years, or I can do this thing in seven years, I could do this in six months you just really get the anxiety of the real situation, you know.

Speaker 2: 13:32

So I think I said this before in a previous episode I threw away all my calendars. I threw away I didn't have a clock, I didn't have calendars or anything. I see now the disservice that I did to myself and how I pretty much broke my frame of time management. You know, but I did it to survive the time. You know it was hard. It was a hard thing to. It's a hard thing. I can't say it was a hard thing. It is a hard thing to come back from, to go from. Time doesn't exist to. I have all this stuff to manage and it's all got to be done at a certain time. So I can honestly say, with the sincerest apology I am sorry, debbie, because I promise I drop the ball often and I will continue to.

Speaker 1: 14:27

I'm sorry, but you're doing better, I think, than we were a few years ago. Like, I think you're right and I want to go back to surveillance because, um, there are a lot of pieces and parts that uh have time associated with them but that make it really complicated, um, when one of us is kind of keeping track of that and the other person isn't able to. But you've come up with some good things. You've got uh whiteboards you are using are using your calendar on your phone. Now You've had to learn those things right. So, reminders, you're using the reminders app, but you had to figure those processes out and that was important. Do you want to talk about your viewpoint of surveillance?

Speaker 2: 15:24

We've talked about that on the podcast. I'm sorry, you kept saying that and I kept kind of ducking it. Let me move my mic here for a second. So, basically, when it came to man that jumped out when you said it in the episode I was listening to it as I was driving I was like, oh, don't even go there, you know. But yeah, I had the hardest time.

Speaker 2: 15:48

And it all started when you were like hey, let me know when you're leaving the work. And I would always be like why you know like I get off work every day of the same day. Like I said, I'm all about that routine in the 24 hours. So I'm like every day I get off at the same time. Why do I need to let you know I mean, unless I'm going to be late why you need to know when I'm coming home from work. And then that paranoia starts to come in, like the fuck is she doing that she needs to know where I'm coming home? Well, just share your location. I'm like why do you want to know where I'm at? And when I first started, I was absolutely against the location share. When was absolutely against the location sharing?

Speaker 2: 16:31

When I first started it, it immediately caused like three arguments. Because she was like hey, babe, I just saw that you went here and did this, and so, you know, I just want to make sure everything was still the same. And I'm like, what reason did you have to be tracking me? You know, instantly aggressive and defensive and, to be honest, I'm not one of those guys just like I like I don't want you tracking me because I'm doing dirt or anything like that.

Speaker 2: 16:52

I literally go to work, come home, spend time with my family, and you know, which is even more reason for me not to want to be tracked I'm like you know where I'm at, I'm at work, where I'm with you, you know. But it felt like surveillance. But it felt like surveillance, it felt like answering to a CO. If you go to a level three prison, you are not allowed to move unless you tell them where you're going, unless you have a valid reason for going there. You tell them what time you're going to be there and when you're going to get back, and so it was like being in level three all over again. Actually, they call level three control movement. So it was like, man, this is not what I want to be doing in my marriage, you know, but thank you for loving me through it and being patient.

Speaker 1: 17:43

It was just a lot of conversation, right, like we had to figure out everybody's motivations and I think that that was really important, that you had to understand my ask and I had to understand your why, right, and that took us a long time. I think somebody said to me once who listens to this podcast. They were like I don't think you and Remy probably never argue.

Speaker 2: 18:06

I was like, oh, you didn't put the business out there, did you? I was like, oh yeah, you got a reputation to keep in these streets.

Speaker 1: 18:14

Man, we fight Like, come on now, we disagree on lots of things. We've been fighting what the last two days, I think what, no, what?

Speaker 2: 18:24

When? Come on, I don't know what she's talking about. See, we're about to fight right now.

Speaker 1: 18:31

But I think that we've made progress and come to center on what those things are. The other one I was going to ask if you would be willing to talk about is letting people in.

Speaker 2: 18:45

I don't like to let people in. I think I don't like to let people yeah.

Speaker 1: 18:49

I think, and I think that that you know I think it's changed since I've known you the last five years. I think that at the beginning you really wouldn't ask for help and wouldn't rely on anybody ever, and I think that there's still a little bit of that Like you don't want to rely on anybody. There's still a lot of that. I'm not even going to front that, like you don't want to rely on anybody, there's still a lot of that.

Speaker 2: 19:08

I'm not even going to front. To be honest, between my issues with time management and letting people in, I would say those are my big two, like one and two factors that I deal with from being in prison and before, like I talked about. You know you chalk it up to the culture and in Black culture we have this thing where it's like no new friends. You know I'm still here with my day ones, but my thing is I don't got no day ones, no more All my old friends. I left that in my past life.

Speaker 1: 19:42

How about our day one podcast listeners though?

Speaker 2: 19:44

Shout out, shout out. But yeah, so even in our relationship, it's like I don't want to accept too much help. I've learned to accept it, but I don't want to accept too much because then it's like I start to feel like I'm not man enough, you know, to do it on my own. To be honest, man, we just talked about this, like yesterday, two days ago, something like that, where I would rather fail than accept too much help, you know. But the reality is that in doing a lot of this stuff and the growth and the rate of growth that we have achieved, a lot of this stuff is new, you know. So I have to learn it while I'm doing it, or like learn it quickly enough to then do it in a, in a, you know, short time frame.

Speaker 2: 20:42

And, you know, sometimes I get, I get overwhelmed and I just like fuck it if it fail. It fail like I don't care, I'll do it whenever. And that is not debbie, debbie like are you going to do this? I'm like man, that's my thing, leave me alone. And, to be honest, man, I think that was just the fear, talking for real, like the fear of disappointment, the fear of being a burden, the fear of depending on somebody who might leave, or the fear of depending on somebody and then not being able to do it without them. So I mean part of it is proving something to somebody else and then part of it is proving it to myself.

Speaker 1: 21:26

Yeah, I mean, it's all messy, it's growth, it's grace it's still happening. Should we talk about some things that we found to be helpful for us in kind of starting these conversations when we realized that triggers were happening, or how we kind of overcame our own fears and frustrations independently and with each other?

Speaker 2: 21:48

Yeah, sure, I know, for me it's been hit or miss. You know, I I learned that trying to talk about it when it happens is, um, sometimes not the thing to do, but at the same time, I never like to feel like I'm bringing up old stuff, you know. So, um, what I've learned is it's best to make a designated time to talk about stuff like that when other people aren't around, when you don't got other stuff going on that you need to focus on. You know, we have our nights where you know we just play video games or we go on walks or whatever, and that's the time where you can kind of have that safe conversation.

Speaker 1: 22:33

I think, as we have learned each other and I think this is true of every relationship, regardless of the incarceration status right, you have to learn what it is your partner needs at a time that maybe you don't like them but you love them, right. And so that strategy I talked about on the last episode was that co-regulation strategy. Like how do you calm each other's nervous system without even having to say a word Because you don't want to lean heavy into that reason part, you don't want to lean into the? Well, how do we fix it? Why did you do it that way? How do we do it differently in the future? Like, what you need first is just some time, some presence, and sometimes you just have to learn as you go what those things are. I know that for me, oftentimes, when you know I'm not having a great day, you'll just like start the teapot before I come home, yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:31

Or if it's a night for you to cook, I'll just start cooking, start prepping, whatever you know anything to give you a second to yourself. When it comes to dealing with problems with each other, kind of like I said before, like it's not always the time to talk about it in the moment I've learned that sometimes it works better if we state the issue but not go into the solution yet, Because a lot of times it's something that we don't want to hear, you know. So it kind of stings, you know. And so to be like, hey, you know, earlier, when this thing happened, you know, it kind of rubbed me wrong. I felt like X, y and Z. But we can leave it at that, you know, because I know if we try to go into it, it's going to be a defensive response. You're going to either justify it or say why you should get over it, which is not always that well, that's not really ever the best response. First you need to digest and reflect on the situation that was stated, you know, and then later on be like, hey, listen, I heard what you said and I can see how this might be. Or, you know, maybe we can try this and then we can have a conversation about it.

Speaker 2: 24:54

But to be honest, I learned this from saying some stuff the wrong way, debbie getting defensive, and I'm like you, always getting defensive. And then debbie come back after we did not spoke to each other all day and be like I'm sorry. How I responded, you know. And then also on my side, debbie said some stuff I'm like man, whatever you know. But then later on like I'm sorry, even before I feel like I really did something wrong, just like I can't.

Speaker 2: 25:29

I'm one to not want to go to bed angry. So I'm sorry about what happened earlier, you know. But we did that enough to where it's like maybe we should just state the issue and not go into it. And I mean things got a lot better because a little inside everybody might think we got the best chemistry. But there was one point where we argued so much Right and we were kind of fearful of it. But I mean, luckily it was a brief time and we are so much better to where we can actually embody that, to where people are like oh, you guys are so great and we're like we know, you know.

Speaker 1: 26:14

No, I think we've had. I mean, we really have had to work on it, like every couple does, right, uh, but I think we have to pay attention to it differently, given the histories that we both have, particularly like learning what triggers are. So, again, removing the incarceration status out of it or putting it in, however you want to look at it like, we have to be really intentional as to how we look and work at things. Um, and we have, and we have to not assume that we know what that's rooted in. Right, it's not our thing to heal for the other person, but it is our duty as a partner to show up and respond.

Speaker 1: 26:50

I have a coworker who likes to say I'm not. I can be responsive, but I'm not responsible. I can be responsive, but I'm not responsible, and so I think it's important within this context that we know we have a role in helping somebody regulate. We have a role in helping somebody heal. It's not our responsibility to get them there. It's not my responsibility to know all of your triggers and figure them out for you so that I can fix them. That's not my purpose. Healing is a self-owned journey that somebody has to embark on, but I can be alongside of you.

Speaker 1: 27:22

So I think that here are a few things and we can speak to each one individually. But here are a few other things I think that helped us Walk and talks. You kind of spoke to that a little bit. There is less pressure and significantly more movement. It helps us regulate and it helps us talk. At the same time, we have the best conversations when we are doing something physical. I think I didn't mean that in a sex way, I meant like going on a walk or going to the gym or like, I think, even driving, because we're in that parallel. Well, my big thing.

Speaker 2: 27:59

The one I love most is cooking together. Cooking is kind of one of my love languages and I love it when we're in the kitchen together and it's just like two chopping boards and a couple of pots and we're going at it and I mean, you're right, that's conversations, whether they lead to resolutions or not. It's kind of just that chemistry thing.

Speaker 1: 28:25

This one. I don't think that we do very much, but I know that it's really successful with folks who've experienced incarceration. This one actually comes out of the Florida Innocence Project article that we had talked about last week, and they recommend code words. They say when a person is feeling off, you don't explain it right away which is something you spoke to, remy, but they use the system like yellow light. Say yellow light because it's just a heads up that you're not fully okay, but you're trying, and I think that that's kind of what you were talking about earlier. Like we don't get into the issue, but we at least let a statement be known that there's a something right that we would want to come back to.

Speaker 1: 28:58

So similar but different. So they suggest this code word strategy to kind of help folks work through that. Did you want to say something there? No. And then shared rituals, which you also talked about a little bit with cooking. But like we are really intentional on Sunday, sunday is our day together, so we are really intentional with our time and how we spend it on Sundays. We also do things like no phones at dinnertime, just so that dinner is a shared family experience.

Speaker 2: 29:30

Yeah, we do a lot of things with our kids at dinner where we talk about our day, play games and everything like that. But another, going back to the Sunday ritual, we clean on Sunday. Now, sunday is not a day where you know it's not the only day we clean and really it's not a lot to clean, but for some reason just us two cleaning on that day feels like it's some type of connection.

Speaker 1: 29:58

Oh, there's a playlist.

Speaker 2: 29:59

Yeah, we have a shared playlist. Debbie told you guys we don't have much to share in the way of music, but our shared playlist we actually have two where you know we kind of link our accounts and we contribute to them together. You know it's a nice little vibe to set that connected tone.

Speaker 1: 30:19

The Innocence Project also recommends some things like gratitude check-ins, creating a space of structure without it feeling like surveillance, and I think that you and I build this into our Sundays also. Right, we have some pretty structured conversations every Sunday around our finances and what's coming up in the week and those types of things. But again, it kind of is rooted, intentionally or unintentionally, in that desire for us to everybody know what's coming up, without there being a time management thing for you to drop the ball on and feel guilty about, right, or then I know where you are and you know where I am, without it feeling like surveillance later in the week, because I can just be like oh yeah, remy said he was going to be late because X, y, z.

Speaker 2: 30:59

Yeah, I've learned recently, I could say within the last six months, to recognize. You said you could be responsive, but it's not responsibility, mm-hmm. But you have to know who you're dealing with. I used to always say you know anger. Well, it was actually a quote. So I'm into quotes. Anger is the byproduct of unmet expectations and we were expecting stuff of each other that was not in our nature. I mean, it wasn't in the way that we're built, you know our nature. I mean it wasn't in the way that we're built, you know. So I had to start recognizing my own faults. Kind of I told you guys about the retrospection, the introspection. I had to start saying, okay, debbie asked me to do this thing. Debbie comes back, sees I didn't do it. Debbie does it herself and kind of silently broods about it. I'm like, hey, I was going to do that. Now I'm mad, you know.

Speaker 1: 32:03

I'm nodding my head so hard listener.

Speaker 2: 32:05

Yeah, but I've learned to start asking. When she asked me hey, can you do this? When does that need to be done by? Because I don't want you to see me over here playing a video game or, you know, lollygagging around and this thing needs to be done by noon, when I planned on doing it at three, you know. So don't die anymore. I get it. And you, hey, sometimes I miss, still Often.

Speaker 1: 32:39

But, whatever, I think we also are good at pausing. That's something that we've had to learn. I think a root of a lot of our conversations is do you want advice right now, or you just want me to be present? Because a lot of times, the answer is I just want you to listen. Right, like, like, I don't want the advice. I already know what I'm going to do, I already know, you know what my next steps are, and it would piss me off, right, like, if. And vice versa. I did the same thing for you If you presented me with something that was happening and I just jumped in with a solution that can be triggering, right? So it was important for us to practice a pause, but it was equally important for us to see do you want advice right now, or you just want me to listen?

Speaker 2: 33:20

Yeah, I mean, and sometimes I don't want either. Sometimes I really just want your presence, you know. And on the advice side, there's been times where you're like, yeah, I want the advice, you don't get the advice you want. And Debbie has gotten to the point where she'd be like, okay, I don't want to talk about this anymore. And I'm like you invited me to the conversation, you know.

Speaker 2: 33:44

But I had to recognize and this was through previous conversations that sometimes, like I said, I'm not aware of my own triggers or whatever I'm going through and I don't know when to quit. I don't know when's enough's enough. I'm like, no, we're going to talk about this. Like, calm down, dude, I'm here to help. Why am I so angry, you know? So, most importantly, we've learned to pause, we've learned to ask. You know, do you want the advice, do you want the presence? And more often than not, the answer is just the presence. Right, because most of the time we're not trying to be fixed, we just want to feel safe enough to be seen. And that's what these little rituals and rhythms do they build safety yeah, they're the emotional version of seat belts not flashy but life-saving oh, we put that on a t-shirt.

Speaker 1: 34:36

Coming up next. I think we should talk a little bit about what healing looks like now and how, even though the scars are still there, they're no longer leading the way, and how this component of incarceration doesn't have to be something that has these metaphorical collateral sanctions on a day-to-day basis either.

Speaker 2: 34:57

Yeah. So let's be real, those metaphorical scars, they don't vanish. They're still there. But what's changed is who's in charge, and the scars used to lead the way. Now they kind of just ride in the backseat.

Speaker 1: 35:12

Yeah, that part. We're not saying healing's done. I think it's not a finish line, it's more like a rhythm, and some days we're in sync and other days we find that we are very offbeat. Is that the right version? But we don't give up the dance.

Speaker 2: 35:29

Yeah, that is great Now. I used to think healing would feel like being fixed, like I'd wake up one day and not be scared or triggered, but that's not real. Healing for me has been recognizing what my scars are and how they are showing outwardly, and choosing not to let them be in control of my day.

Speaker 1: 35:52

And I think for me it's making sure that I'm not making your silence something about me. It is rarely, if ever, personal is what I tell people. When I'm doing consulting and coaching, we look at people's traumas and responses and we're like why are they coming at me that way when it rarely, if ever, has anything to do with you? It's rarely personal, but we like to internalize that a little bit and make it feel personal, and so it's been really important for me that healing has meant not internalizing those moments and learning to trust the foundation that you and I have built.

Speaker 2: 36:31

Yeah, Now I would like to pause here and kind of go back and focus on something. You know where it's. Like we say, healing is not like being fixed. I always like to tell people that change does not mean that you have to do away with your previous version. Right, you know, I tell people when it comes to professional stuff, when it comes to personal stuff, like I'm very much the old person that I was Don't get me wrong when it comes to this context that we're dealing with now, I also have a lot of scars from that person still being there, from that person still being there.

Speaker 2: 37:13

But the growth that I've got to this point is because I've learned how to use the old me better. You know, I've learned to use what I have and, you know, handle it different or aim it at something more positive, Like I used to have this old aggression and now I've learned how to just tame it, use it as a tool when necessary. You know, when it comes to confronting somebody, Debbie's not that person. She's like babe, I need you to go talk to them, Like I got this. When it comes to negotiating, I'm like you know, hey, this is the line. We're not going to cross this line let's talk business. So I don't want you to think like man. You know, this change is so intimidating, Right, Because I have to change who I am. That's what makes you start to feel like you're broken. Nah, that's not the case. What we're going to learn is some new skills to cope with situations, to learn when to be vulnerable to, when to be aggressive, when to be security conscious. You know, because, really, if you change the perspective, these are skills.

Speaker 1: 38:23

Right, that's kind of a trauma. That's a Dr Perry concept, too. He talks a lot about like trauma. That's a Dr Perry concept too. He talks a lot about like we often ask people to change. We often ask them to stop these behaviors that are problematic, without replacing them with something. So we haven't offered anybody anything new. We're just telling them to stop this thing over here, which does a discredit to who they have been, but we also, then, are discrediting things that have kept them safe thus far in their lives. So we're asking them to completely stop over here and just do this new thing, and that's not giving them any credit for who they've had to be in their lifetime.

Speaker 1: 39:01

And instead we need to pair those things together Like okay within this context. So, for example, you and I's relationship. Like so, within my marriage, here are behaviors that are okay, that I can borrow from my old self, and here are new ones that I've had to learn. Or here are ways that I've had to do those skills differently, because this is how I want my marriage to be. And look, whereas I might lean more heavily on those old skill sets in another context, but within this space, that's not what I need, right, and those aren't the tools in my toolbox that I need to take with me for the job, right. So it's always great to teach people new things, and I think we've talked a lot about that, this episode of like. Here are the things that we can do to learn a new skill set and create something new or maximize on old things that we've done, but it's all equally important to give credit to those skill sets that have kept us safe or alive up until this point too.

Speaker 2: 39:56

Yeah, I mean, we don't need to necessarily change us, you know. To put it another way, I guess I could say I don't want you to hear hey, you're wrong. You know, like, what you are is wrong, what you're doing is wrong. I would rather you hear and accept it as hey, man, that could be used as a better like, that's a great quality, but let me show you how to use it better. Right, you know to handle different situations that may come at you, so that way you don't feel like man, I got to just change everything about myself. You're like oh man, I can learn some new coping mechanisms. I can learn a new perspective, a new way to use this tool. I mean, if I gave you a hammer and all you knew was hammer and nails and I was like hey, let me show you how to use this other side, it's got a claw on it. You can take these nails out. I'm not saying that you have to stop looking at this as a whacking tool. I'm saying you can use this same thing a different way.

Speaker 1: 41:03

Right, exactly right. Some other things from the supporter role. I talked heavily about the supporter role last week in our part one episode. So, again, if that's the role you play, like, I do make sure that you check that episode out, because I think I talk about a lot of those things in depth. But for this section, what I would say is there are easy things, language-wise, that you can do to support, helping, grow a new skill set. Again, you can be responsive but not responsible right For somebody's change.

Speaker 1: 41:29

So, uh, things like previously when it was important for you to sit with your back to the wall in the restaurant and have that safety, um, particularly right at the beginning, it was important for me to like, just know that and just be like hey, you want to go sit by the wall? Or hey, uh, tell the hostess, like, can we have a? Can we have that table over there? It didn't have to bring up the thing, we didn't have to talk about it, but it allowed you to be safe and seen without having to get back into those triggers and that trauma. Equally some other phrases instead. Like I mentioned in the last episode, that surveillance piece was really important. So, instead of like how's your day. Where are you going? What time are you going to be back? Some of the times, those things are appropriate, but instead it's also important for myself to just pause and take a breath and instead say, like, what kind of support do you need today? Or just let you come home and have your moment and then talk to me about your day.

Speaker 2: 42:27

I've noticed that you often say now, what's your day look like, instead of being like where are you going and what time? What's your day look like? Well, I got this thing to do. I'm going to go here around 3 o'clock. I got to go do this whatever. So it's kind of like I know what you expect.

Speaker 1: 42:49

It's not a secret. I know what you expect. Yeah, you know it's not a secret. I didn't hide it from you.

Speaker 2: 42:51

I don't have to be like man, why you want my whole itinerary. It's like, you know, I got some stuff to do. I got to go in town, I got to go see this person, that person do this, whatever, yeah, it works. I'm telling you, like, even with the thing about sitting with my back against the wall, like when you started doing it, I noticed, because at first it was like you didn't understand it. Then it was like, hey, let's go over here. And I was like, damn, she's not even going to ask, say nothing about it. So it kind of drew attention to it in my head without drawing attention to it to anybody else, right? So then it was like, oh yeah, that's a thing that I do. Maybe I should try something new, you know. And I started just being like, nah, we can take any table, you know.

Speaker 1: 43:39

Or sometimes you'll go to the booth first and you know like I've picked this booth because it's like you can sit to the wall, but then you'll pick the seat. That's not against the wall.

Speaker 2: 43:50

And I'm like, oh, change up, and we don't got to talk about it and we don't got to talk about it. You know what's going on.

Speaker 1: 43:55

So, as we close, we want to finish with a few questions to sit with, whether you're the person who came home or the person who's holding space for somebody else's return.

Speaker 2: 44:08

Yeah, this journey is layered and none of us get it right every time, but reflection keeps us growing. So here are some questions we found helpful.

Speaker 1: 44:17

What metaphorical scars are you still carrying and how do they show up in your daily life? Where have you been trying to fix instead of connect, and what's one ritual, one rhythm or one small act that helps you feel safe in your relationships?

Speaker 2: 44:35

Yeah, and I'd add this when are you holding? Shame that needs to be named. What does healing look like for you? Not a perfect version, but a real messy brave version.

Speaker 1: 44:49

And, like I did with the part one episode, because of the topic, because of its vulnerability, I think it's important to leave you with an affirmation. And here it is we are growing together Even in the hard moments. We are healing in ways that punishment never could. We are not broken. We are rebuilding.

Speaker 2: 45:11

That's dope, all right. So I mean I said earlier, I think I said earlier, you know we try to be authentic and vulnerable with this podcast. So just know like you're not alone. You know whether you're navigating your own scars, whether you're walking beside someone else like you're doing the courageous work.

Speaker 1: 45:29

And if this episode spoke to you, please share it with somebody who needs to hear it. And if you've got your own story to tell, as always, we would love to hear it. You can reach out to us on our socials or visit us at lockdowntolegacycom. Our email, as always, is stories S-T-O-R-I-E-S at lockdowntolegacycom.

Speaker 2: 45:48

And that is the number two. Great yeah. So hey, I'd like to ask you guys, man, like reach out to us on our socials, man, Facebook, Instagram. I recently started putting out these videos on TikTok.

Speaker 1: 46:05

You're a TikToker now in that generation. I don't even know which generation it is. I'm an old head.

Speaker 2: 46:11

I'm an old head. I don't know who the TikTokers is. I know I've been out for ages and I'm just creating my first account, so come support me. All right, but until next time yo keep choosing love over control, presence over perfection and legacy over shame.

Speaker 1: 46:26

Take care, y'all Remember, healing is mutual Peace.