Prison Censorship: The Hidden Battle Behind Bars

Dr. Debbie Jones triumphantly returns to Lockdown Legacy after successfully defending her doctoral dissertation, sharing the emotional journey that led to her joining the mere 2% of Black women globally who hold doctorate degrees. With raw honesty, she recounts the grueling two-year writing process that culminated in a 242-page, 53,000-word academic achievement focusing on the lived experiences of Black educators facing policies that prohibit discussions of race.

The episode then pivots to examine prison censorship through Troy Chapman's powerful article from the Prison Journalism Project. Remie draws from personal experience as he and Debbie analyze how electronic communication systems in prisons have dramatically increased surveillance without accountability. They expose the arbitrary rules governing everything from photographs to written content, revealing how these restrictions sever crucial family connections and lead to widespread self-censorship among incarcerated individuals. Perhaps most striking are the parallels they uncover between academic censorship and prison communication restrictions—both disproportionately affecting marginalized communities and limiting critical thought.

Dive into this thought-provoking discussion that bridges personal triumph with systemic challenges, and discover why understanding these connected struggles matters for everyone concerned with freedom of expression. Subscribe to hear next week's continuation as Lockdown Legacy further explores firsthand accounts from the Prison Journalism Project.

Chapters

• 2:07 Dr. Debbie's PhD Defense Victory
• 10:09 The Doctoral Writing Journey and Family Support
• 17:17 Defense Day: Family & Community
• 31:48 Prison Journalism Project Introduction
• 39:15 Prison Censorship & Electronic Communications
• 49:57 Book Bans and Broader Implications
• 1:01:07 Ending Remarks & Next Episode Preview

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:04

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Lockdown Legacy. I'm your host, remy Jones, and today, two episodes in a row, you guys are going to be blessed with my awesome sauce. Why DJ Dr Debbie Jones?

Speaker 2: 1:20

I was going to say good morning, but I guess this is it's anytime, right. So good day, good day. Yeah, welcome back baby. Yeah, thanks Good day.

Speaker 1: 1:28

Yeah, welcome back baby. Yeah, thanks, nice to have you.

Speaker 2: 1:30

Yeah, it's good to be back. It's been a long, long time, so I'm glad to have the space and capacity to do some of these episodes again. Not that you've been missing me while I'm gone. I mean, you've had Warren and Wise and all kinds of folks.

Speaker 1: 1:47

I think we've all missed you, our listeners, our guests, especially me. I'm like a lost puppy, dog, baby.

Speaker 2: 1:54

I've still been a loyal listener in the background. I've got plenty of commute to listen, but it's good to be back back in the chair.

Speaker 1: 2:04

But we appreciate your support. Speaking of Dr DJ, you want to give us an update about that. We briefly mentioned it in our last episode, but you know.

Speaker 2: 2:16

I was not the guest so I didn't want to focus on it. Yeah, I think we've talked extensively on this podcast, about this doctoral journey, I suppose. So on March 7th I defended that with everybody there. You got to be there, the kids were there, we had family come. I had a lot of friends there, some of which listened to this podcast. So thank you if you were in the room with me talking about my research and this work that I have, pretty much head buried in the sand, worked on for two years now. It is exhausting to write about the same thing over and over and over again for two years. I think that probably book authors understand what this is like. Of course, other people who have gone through this process but I mean, in the end, 242 pages of 53,000 words have gone out to the graduate school. They actually got accepted this last week, so I am done, done, done.

Speaker 1: 3:22

I couldn't be more proud of you. The repercussions of speaking are lessened, which ties into this episode. By the way, I can tell you that it was also tiring for me to have to hear every one of those 53,000 words, but I do not regret it at all.

Speaker 2: 3:42

Yeah, it was a long time, but I needed a sounding board, so thanks for being that I've become like a what's the word?

Speaker 1: 3:51

Not an expert, but I've become like a pretty good source of knowledge for that topic, Just because Through osmosis, yeah, I mean, I listen to you, pitch it and perfect it and you know, you tell me, oh, I did this and I think I should change that because of this. And here's this new piece of information. I'm like, oh, I did this and I think I should change that because of this. And here's this new piece of information. I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah. So if anybody, I doubt they ever would.

Speaker 2: 4:21

But if anybody were to ever spark up a conversation with me on this topic, I'm like, oh, how much time you got, man. It's a really deep topic. I think what is interesting about doctoral work and what people one of the many misconceptions maybe about what you do and what it is is it is like a master's degree. You learn widely about a specific topic. Right, it's a wider knowledge making you a master in that field. A doctorate is you are obtaining knowledge about something specific. So my degree is in educational policy, but that's a deep field.

Speaker 2: 5:01

But to write a dissertation, you have to write very deeply about the most nuanced thing of the field. So, for example, my topic was studying the lived experiences of black educators in relationship to policy that bans, bars or prohibits the discussion of race. So I really wanted to understand how, if I, as a black teacher, now had an identity that was deemed controversial by policy or law, would that impact how I was able to show up as an educator for my students? But that's pretty broad. I then had to narrow it to K-12, only kindergarten through 12th grade, not higher education. I had to narrow it to two states, ohio and Texas. We had to continue to pull the microscope down and narrow the thing so we can write about it, because it can't be that broad. So I know a lot.

Speaker 1: 5:59

So you had to take it from a magnifying glass to a microscope.

Speaker 2: 6:02

Yeah yeah, it's a large amount of information on a thing, but in the most specific of ways to write about it, it's not to say that I don't have deeper knowledge. You got to hear a lot of this, both in my presentation and just talking it out. I really wanted to look at the historical concept of this work to show that, while right now, this anti-DEI rhetoric that we are now seeing again in 2025 is really scary for people who hold those identities, but also that this is not the first iteration or attempt to remove black people from teaching spaces. That was really important to me to show that post-emancipation, there was harm done to black people in education. Post-segregation and integration, there was harm done to black people in education and so many others that I couldn't even make into my paper that will show up later because it's going to be a book.

Speaker 1: 7:06

So that's exciting. My favorite quote from your dissertation was you can speak to who actually said it. But you said history doesn't repeat itself but it often rhymes. And I was like you know, I'm just thinking of all the things that have come around and come around again throughout American history, us history, and we're like damn, I can just imagine some like older person, like damn, we're still fighting that fight, like no, it's not the same fight, but I couldn't tell how you would think that.

Speaker 1: 7:40

But also, when we talk about this pulling a lot of information and then you know having to focus in on it pulling a lot of information and then you know having to focus in on it I was the sounding board and I helped. I don't want to give myself any credit here. I was the one that she talked to a lot and did a lot of the trial runs when she had to do all of this research. I mean, when you were still doing your coursework, you were starting to gather information. So I would say out of the four years, I would say three years. I've had to just guess three years worth of gathering information and figuring out what's relevant enough to make the cut. And then, after you done all this three word, three years of writing.

Speaker 1: 8:27

You say, okay, I have to fit this whole thing into 20 minutes. And I was like 20 minutes. And when you got it down to 30 minutes, I was like that was great, that was perfect. You're like now I've got to cut some stuff and I'm like, well, that all seemed very important. And then you got down to like 25 minutes and it was like a grueling thing to cut five minutes out. Yeah, and you were talking so fast. I was like no, no, wait, you got to stay on that. She's like no, this is where the bulk of the information needs to be and we need to focus. I was like, well, okay, so you know, I'm not an academic, I'm an outsider looking in and you know better than me what's important. But from an outsider's point of view, I'm like that was all great information. How do you pick what to cut?

Speaker 2: 9:14

It was so hard. I don't know how you pick To me. I really wanted to well, as you know. So, listeners, my research was qualitative. So, like I said, which means I really focused on the storytelling, it was very important to me to amplify the voices of people who were experiencing it, not to show it by number, not to show it by my own insertion, but to show it from them. And so I had folks in both the states of Ohio and Texas. Ohio because we've had a lot of proposed legislation but nothing passed as of today, and Texas because they have a lot of things that have passed. Sorry, texas, I know we have some Texas listeners, so there's a lot happening in education from the US perspective.

Speaker 2: 10:02

So it was really important for me to center on the voice. So, at the end of the day, if it meant I had to cut other pieces I had written about so that I could tell all of the quotes, that's what I was going to do. So I leaned in heavy to that and tried to continue to center my work around that, and I think we're going to talk about defense day, but I did that in my exam part too. I can share more about that when we get there, but it was really difficult for me. I practiced that presentation every day, at least one time a day, for a month, which is a lot, because I turned in my full draft of my dissertation to my committee on February 7th and then I defended on March 7th and pretty much well, then I worked on it over the weekend. So, starting on March 10th or February 10th, I practiced it every day, every day, one time, at least a day for a month, and it started at like 48 minutes, yeah.

Speaker 1: 11:03

It became like a thing that needed to be done in the house. Like you know, you got the bedtime routine. You know you clean up the kitchen after dinner and everything. And then it was, like you know we would we always watch Jeopardy together as a family in this household and the kids are very much into that but it was like, ok, Jeopardy's over. All right, babe, come on. And I'm like all right, you guys know what to do. Right, like we, the kids, are on autopilot for at least 30 minutes. I'm going to go upstairs and I'm going to sit in the chair and listen to you practice and I'm like, oh, yeah, that was great, I'd see you change this part and left that out and added this. And then it's like, oh, but I feel like I need to do this. Oh, okay, yeah, I think that'll be cool. And then you know, all right, kids, let's get ready for bed. And then we'll come back and listen to that part one more time. And I mean it was a daily thing.

Speaker 2: 11:53

Sometimes I practiced in the car on the way to work because I had a full-time job in this time of life too. We have four children. You were definitely a wonder woman. It was really stressful. I mean, every chapter of this was stressful to me in different ways, but I don't know. This defense haze and the mental fog was really challenging to my workplace, and I think that what was helpful to me was being really honest and transparent with all of the people around me, like my boss, like my coworkers, parent with all of the people around me, like my boss, like my coworkers. Like, one week out from defense week, I am not going to be a good colleague to you. I'm not going to respond to your emails very timely. I'm sorry. I just know that my capacity is low and they were all really great with that. They took up things that I couldn't do. Everybody was tagging in, checking in with me.

Speaker 1: 12:49

I am glad.

Speaker 1: 12:51

I am so glad that they gave you all that grace, because you often apologize to me and I don't know if you apologize to the children as well but, you always apologize to me as if you weren't showing up for the family, but I mean, I would like to say you handled it amazing, because I don't think that they noticed an absence by you, and I would say that, considering how much work that I know you did and you know also holding, I mean you say you had a full-time job, but let's be honest, you had more than one job you know at the same time. Yeah, one job you know at the same time. So, knowing how much you had going on, I don't know if I ever told you this, and if so, I'm sure I haven't told you enough but you did quite a good job in showing up for the family as well as juggling all of those things, cause I know you had a job. You had another job At one time. You're doing speaking engagements as well and trainings, and you were teaching at school, right so, and you were being a good wife. I mean, I still feel like I got the best you know you were.

Speaker 1: 13:57

I mean, to put some personal stuff in there, there were days where I said I had a hard day at work and I would come home and my wife's playing the whole date night, and we're playing like video games and and drinking me, needing charcuterie, boards and stuff, and she's lit candles and she's done all this stuff and I'm like where the fuck did you get the capacity to do this? I feel guilty, like my day at work had this. You know it triggered this and I just instantly started thinking like I got to step my damn game up. Man, this is nuts. I got to step my game up, so give you your flowers. You are amazing. Thank you. I mean, I know it was hard. It was hard, but you did it and made it look amazing and effortless.

Speaker 2: 14:42

I appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 14:45

It was probably the hardest thing I've done in my life, just because of the time, even being married to me, I'm the hardest thing you've ever had to deal with in your life.

Speaker 2: 14:56

No, I got emotional there for a second, I had to pause, but yeah, it was. I mean, now that it is really done, I can look back and I don't know. I don't know what mental fortitude existed to make that happen, but I am. I think I said it yesterday. I posted on Facebook because I woke up. So my document was accepted on Friday, which means I don't have anything else to do. Everything is submitted. I just wait for the graduation now, which is weird, right, like what am I supposed to do now?

Speaker 2: 15:34

But the piece that I woke up with yesterday, being able to reflect on this journey and see the end of it, it's a gift I don't know how to receive yet. Um, cause it still feels I don't know I'm too close to it to feel like the race of it is over. I guess, um, the the push, the hustle culture that was attached to that, I mean, that's really what it is. Um, I mean there were a lot of late nights and a lot of rewrites and a lot of early mornings and a lot of taking the computer to gymnastics practice, taking it to the soccer field, and I do think that our kids felt they maybe didn't feel an absence of my physical presence most often, but I know that they missed me. I mean, our kids sacrificed four years of time with their mom in pursuit of while I pursue knowledge right, so I think that that's really important to acknowledge that this belongs to them too. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 16:47

And I think they do. I mean, we do a good job of explaining to our kids what's going on and you know not just that you're graduating but what exactly it is that you've done and why it's a big deal. So you know, I think they understand the importance of it and I also know that you placed a lot of importance on the things you did with the kids. There were times where I had to put myself in your frame of thinking. So when I thought it's not that important, I had to understand why you thought it was so important that we had hot chocolate or that we had a movie night and we all ate living room and stuff. I'm like for me to laugh. I got to tell you I'm laughing preemptively. I would I occasionally joke. I have to preface that it's a joke. You occasionally joke, I often joke.

Speaker 1: 17:42

Okay, there we go, that's better and when it's something that I feel like is a privilege and it's something that we can do anytime, I have to remember that your time is limited and your engagement in this manner is limited, so it's a lot more important to you, and I often be like we don't have to eat dinner or, you know, eat dinner and then have hot chocolate and ice cream. Or sometimes we reverse the order, like it was so important to have this hot chocolate and ice cream moment that we were like all right, we'll just eat dinner later. I'm like fuck them kids. You know, that's my joke. I would always say like fuck them kids, we can do that anytime.

Speaker 1: 18:21

And she'd be like no, no, no, no, like we got to do this and we got to have this movie night and I, you know, on my work nights I got a little bed at like 8 30 pm. So when it's like all right, and we'll just stay up and the kids can stay up till 10, I'm like all right, sister, like you're on your own, you know. But then I would have to like recall, like this is important because, and then I would be like all right, let's make this happen. You know, I go to like listen, man, there were some times where I went to bed late and when it was all said and done and everything was over and cleaned up, like all right, I'm going to bed, and I'd just be like so short and focused, like I gotta get to sleep because I'm about to drive down a road with a whole bunch of stuff, you know.

Speaker 1: 19:09

But I'll be going to bed like 10, got to get up at 2, you know. But it was very important that I facilitated that with you because I understood that you have been giving up a lot. But I say that they don't probably notice it that much because you did prioritize those moments. They were very important and I know that they enjoyed it.

Speaker 2: 19:33

Yeah, before we move on, I want to preface that it is a joke. You always say it is a joke, but you're a really attuned dad and care greatly. You never really mean that.

Speaker 1: 19:48

I say it a lot about a lot of different things, but I never let my kids go without. No, and you never mean it, you're just being funny, I'll say it about while I'm putting some stuff in the shopping cart. Kids don't keep needing these new boots as I put them in the shopping cart Like man. Fuck them kids, but they're going to get what they need. I'm never going to let my kids go without.

Speaker 2: 20:08

Sometimes what they want right Like it's your A lot of times what they want what you want them to have.

Speaker 1: 20:18

You know, it's it. You want them to have a lot, and so they get what they get, not through a fit.

Speaker 2: 20:22

Well, I appreciate your sacrifice too, cause it was a lot for all of us, everybody in this whole, this whole thing sacrificed, and I think that was really important.

Speaker 1: 20:32

Um, not to make this about me I think I sacrificed the most. I think you very much prioritize the kids and I appreciate that, um. But when I say I sacrificed the most, I think you sacrificed the most in that regard too, like our relationship. You sacrifice the most in that regard too, like our relationship, I see, because, like I said, I go to bed at 8.30 and you know if you're up like, oh man, I got to write, I got to write, I got to write.

Speaker 1: 20:56

There were times where I would like roll over and peek an eye open and our alarm clock projects the time onto the ceiling, I'd roll over and be like maybe it's 1230. What the fuck are you doing, you know? So when I say, like I said, I uh sacrifice the most is because of my own job, I have to go to bed early already, you know, before this, I go to bed at eight, 30. You go. You come to bed at like nine, 30, 10, you know. But to see how many late nights that you were still up and I'd have been asleep for four hours already, you know, was like damn. So we did have a lot of lost time together, yes, you know, even if that time was like cuddling in bed while I was asleep, you know. But I'm not regretful at all, so don't let me say in that think that I'm like bitter or anything. I just want to recognize that this had to be endured. It was one of the components.

Speaker 2: 21:54

Yeah, we did have to. We had to let a lot of that go, and I think it was really important to us in the time that we could find together that it'd be something we both wanted to do, something that we both spent time in. We had to co-plan that and schedule it. Really, I know that that's a thing that therapists say a lot like make sure you schedule time together and it's like I shouldn't have to schedule time with my significant other. We had to schedule time together and block that intentionally on our calendars and honor that time, even if it meant you had to go to bed late or get up early or whatever it was and I had to adjust my writing schedule. We had to make sure that we did that.

Speaker 2: 22:42

Divorce rates are really really high generally right, they're at about 50%, but they are extra high among doctorate students. There's a lot of studies out about that. That divorces at almost like 75%. It's really high among this specific population, which isn't a huge population. Not a lot of people go back for a doctorate, so to know that it's significantly higher among that population was important for us to keep at the forefront too. Like how are we recognizing what each other is doing over this course of four years to come out better and stronger in spite of. You know all of those pieces, so you want to talk a little about Defense Day and then move it on.

Speaker 1: 23:32

So I'll tell you about defense week. I do not have the best memory, so I'll tell you guys that, but it was my job to coordinate it all and every step of the way I felt like I was lighter. Now just got to put that out there. But to make that even worse, like two days before defense day I ended up getting sick and it was the most obscure. Like, oh my gosh, my throat just feels so dry. I've drank like three gallons of water today.

Speaker 1: 24:05

And then I woke up the next day and was like, ah, my body's like real sore. And then the third day I was like I don't know if I should go and the look on her face as it snapped over to me like you are going Like yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, I'll be there, dug out some masks out of the closet and stuff, like yeah, it was. But we got there and the amount of people that showed up was great. Man, I got to shout out if you guys are listening, man, shout out to everybody who showed up, Because I mean, it wasn't like at like a banquet hall or something.

Speaker 2: 24:46

It was just a classroom.

Speaker 1: 24:47

This was in the college in a classroom. This was in the college in the classroom. And then we set up shop down the hall a few classes down for, like you know, okay, we heard her do her part and now we all have to go down here and wait while she defends with her committee and like this little classroom was packed. We're not talking about the big ones you see on, like the auditorium classrooms, you see, but like this was like the size of like a high school class, you know, and I mean we, what's that? Like 30 people in there yeah, I.

Speaker 2: 25:19

I sent out 35 invitations um to the defense and I set up 30 chairs because I figured there would be a percentage of folks not coming that 30 would be plenty. There were 28 people that day. So I was really in awe of this full room of people who were willing to come and support me and I put in my email like it is a significant investment to come to Ohio State's campus because you got to pay for parking, because OSU sold their park and that's a different episode. Anyway, parking is paid at Ohio State campus. It's huge, it's ridiculous. Folks got to park far away and walk. So to see that amount of people come and support me, knowing that they could only listen to the first 25 minutes of my two-hour defense that was the only part open to the public blew me away. That people were willing to pay and walk and listen for 25 minutes was amazing.

Speaker 1: 26:29

So, like I said, I was sick Shout out to Jacob you know he was just on our last episode with us, but he stepped up in a major way since I was sick. I mean I felt so helpless because Debbie and Jacob and my in-laws and everything like everybody swooped in and just started taking over. Like oh, jeremy's sick Boom. Like. Like I was like no, no, I can do this. So it was done, done, deal. I could just sit there like all right, I can carry this and put this in the car, I could shuttle some people, but like that's, that's what we have and that's what we're very appreciative of. We've mentioned it a few times on the podcast. Our family dynamic is awesome. I mean, my mom drove two and a half hours from Akron. Like your parents were there. My sister sent some creations, some confection creations. I'm going to shout her out on the podcast separately because her business is awesome. Like we got so many compliments about the stuff that my mom brought down with her Shout out to Sugar Bomb Bakery Sugar.

Speaker 1: 27:37

Bomb Bakery in Akron man. We're going to put the link in the show notes and everything. I'm going to look at our Facebook, our social media and stuff. I'm going to start posting her business cards and stuff Because it was awesome and don't let the geographic location fool you. Like this, stuff can be dropped in the mail and delivered on time.

Speaker 2: 27:57

So yeah, so Janelle donated some treats that your mom brought, which were great. I was appreciative of that. Jacob, we've talked a little bit about her.

Speaker 1: 28:06

Jacob was probably the biggest supporter man.

Speaker 2: 28:09

I think that people don't understand. So Jacob and I were previously married right, and three of our children I shared with Jacob. And then we separated and you and I got married and so our family dynamic is interesting. But there are no weird feelings there in terms of I don't know. He just stepped up in a way that was super appreciative. He stopped at Costco for us the day before he went and got gluten-free cookies and stuff so that I could have something to eat afterwards, and ran one of the shuttles, made sure parents got dropped off appropriately, helped with the kids. I was greatly appreciative. There just aren't any hard feelings there and there's still a lot of support and I just am genuinely grateful. We've heard it at the doctor's office when you and Jacob go to the doctor together.

Speaker 1: 29:04

Yeah, we do food therapy sessions for our son and me and Jacob attend those sessions together and it's great. Like the doctor was like wait a minute, so explain this. And we explained it one time and she was like that is awesome. The lady when I called in the prescription, the lady at the insurance place, she was like that is awesome, cause she asked me why both of our insurances were on Right. So I mean, I know you guys got your own relationship, but I can honestly say that that is a very valuable friendship and I'm glad that it's not like the typical, you know, husband, ex-husband, because we don't view it as we don't like to say the word ex-husband.

Speaker 2: 29:44

It's just got so much negative connotation and outside of co-parenting we have a friendship.

Speaker 1: 29:50

So I appreciate that and I appreciate all of the help that he gave around this dissertation.

Speaker 2: 29:56

Well, yeah, obviously I mean because we all just went to the play that we talked about on the last episode. If you didn't get to listen, you can go listen to us talk about seeing the lynched among us together. We're going to go see another thing today, the three of us. So there's a lot of respect and mutual appreciation. I think that comes from that. So big shout out to Jacob. Big shout out to Jacob.

Speaker 1: 30:19

Actually, I'd like to inject him into that part about the sacrifice as well, because there were many times where he took the kids on days where he wasn't scheduled to have them, just so that we could have time or so that you could have a break, right? So yeah, but I see that we're at 30 minute mark and we actually have an episode today, so if you're ready, my final words are simply congratulations, Dr Jones.

Speaker 2: 30:48

Thank you, thanks. I'll just briefly say that for a PhD, at least in the US context, most often defense I know we've used that term a lot is a two-hour exam period, and so you give a presentation, portion of that and then, most commonly, you have like an hour and a half of questioning by your committee to make sure that the rigor of your exam, that your dissertation is not just defendable, but that you are worthy of being called their colleague, you are worthy of the title, et cetera. And I really I loved my defense, I had a really great time with it, I loved all of the people coming and I really strongly advocated for our kids to be there. That's not a pretty common practice, at least at my university within my department, and it was really important to me because, as we've said over and over again, our kids have sacrificed too, and I needed them to see what they were sacrificing for two, and I needed them to see what they were sacrificing for and I needed them to know what was possible. There are only 2% of black women globally that have a doctorate degree and I'm really proud to join that 2%. So I'm going to close with reading my dedication. Okay, I have a lot of acknowledgements. I'm going to put together a video of those acknowledgements sometime, you know, so that I can shout out those people individually. But I want to read this dedication and I know you've heard it, but I think it's important for everybody to hear and then we can transition. If that's okay with you, that's fine with me. All right, clear my throat.

Speaker 2: 32:31

This dissertation is dedicated to my husband, remy Jones. I could not have finished without your unwavering support, humor and grace. You were my biggest supporter throughout, not only this process, but in every facet of our lives, through ups downs and everything in between. You've been my strength to draw from. I'll continue to always be your number one fan. It is also dedicated to my children, ruby, juniper, ivan and Raylan. I loved you before I knew you and I can't believe I get to be your mama. Thank you for giving me the grace to grow wiser as we all grew older, to my perfect family. Thank you for sacrificing your time with me in my pursuit of knowledge. I hope to someday repay you. Until then, please accept this dissertation as a small symbol of my gratitude. I love you.

Speaker 1: 33:23

Well, thank you so much for that. Yeah, I made the cut, I made the credits.

Speaker 2: 33:29

The big credits right at the top. So are we ready to take a pause here and then we can transition? Yeah, let's do that. All right, We'll see you back.

Speaker 1: 33:37

Listener All right folks, we're back and we're ready.

Speaker 2: 33:44

Yeah, today we thought it would be fun to talk about some things that incarcerated folks are identifying as important to kind of bring to the public, and so I believe you found this journalism page.

Speaker 1: 33:58

Yes. So this is a page that I often go and just read stuff on and I thought, hey, man, it'd be really good to kind of highlight some of these stories because they're awesome, some of these stories because they're awesome. So I'm thinking that this could be a new segment of the podcast where it's a reoccurring episode and then we just have like a new you know subtitle of what we're covering for this week. But I figure we just pick two stories off of here and, you know, highlight them and bring awareness to what's going on. This is the prison journalism project, is the website that I go to a lot and their big thing is they highlight stories written by inmates.

Speaker 2: 34:47

this organization is to build a national network of incarcerated and formerly incarcerated writers to report on news, lived experiences and underreported issues within the prison system and via their website. Their goal is to enrich mainstream media with authentic, nuanced reporting from the inside, changing who gets to tell the story of incarceration in America, which obviously aligns with who we are and what we want to do as a podcast, so we wanted to bring that to you today. Listener.

Speaker 1: 35:17

Yeah, I mean because we all know that what you get in the news may not actually be what happened, how it happened. You know, everything has to be shined from a certain lens, a certain light dolled up for the public to consume. But we don't want it to be palatable, we want it to be real.

Speaker 2: 35:38

Right, and I think what we also loved about Prison Journalism Project's mission and what they do is that they help support incarcerated folks developing those writing and journalism skills through written handbooks and editorial guidance, as well as publication opportunities that go beyond them, including legal guidance, communication, best practices, glossaries and safety tips. So I just appreciated that there was a depth to what it is they were bringing to the conversation. It wasn't just oh, just submit your articles or whatever and we're going to publish them and push them through. There's an actual feedback loop and development process so that incarcerated folks come home with skill sets that they can leverage and continue to do journalism, which feels really important too.

Speaker 1: 36:21

Yeah, and since we have often talked about how people returning home often don't really have all the resources that they need to succeed, this seemed like a really good probably lesser known resource for personal development that returning citizens could utilize. It's not the typical line of work that you would see somebody go into when they return home from incarceration, like usually, it's just like go get a job. I need people to know that go get a job doesn't have to be the convenience store down the street.

Speaker 2: 37:02

Right, but what an interesting thing to leverage. You talked a little bit about this when you talked with Warren and Christine about the writing and how important letters are Like. Why wouldn't we capitalize on a skill set that incarcerated people have nothing but time to develop, right? If they are writing a lot already, why are we not helping them to kind of put that into practice in a way that will make them money when they can come home right and find some love in that too? So we really appreciated that.

Speaker 2: 37:37

So the first article we're going to talk about today is prison censorship goes beyond book bans, and this is an article from Troy Chapman, who highlights the evolving landscape of communication censorship within prisons, particularly focusing on the shift from the traditional mail and to electronic communications. And while there is a modernization, I guess, of why e-communication makes more sense, it has led to increased surveillance, reducing the oversight and impacting the abilities of incarcerated individuals to express themselves freely, which I think aligns with some current rhetoric too, which we're going to talk about. Yeah, what did you think in reading Troy's article? What stood out? Well, for me it kind of was a like duh moment.

Speaker 1: 38:38

Like really like in the first paragraph I was like what the heck? Why haven't I even thought to talk about this already? But yeah, like censorship is so huge in incarceration but it's like it's something that you expect, so we kind of I didn't even think about it. I mean, I dealt with censorship for 10 years and it's like actually beyond cause, I still communicate with guys that are incarcerated and I've known it so long that it didn't even dawn on me to talk about it, right, um, notably for me. He talked about self-censorship and I thought that was huge, but I'm going to save that for later time. Okay, we're going to go down the line.

Speaker 2: 39:27

So I think what was interesting within Troy's article was kind of this discussion about how electronic communication is the norm now but that, while it offers efficiency, there is an increased security level to that that is monitored by trigger words and that type of a thing, whereas it's expected on incoming mail, physical letters and I think you've talked about that before, but I'll let you talk about the process but that there's this outgoing scrutiny that's happening too, particularly on electronic communications.

Speaker 1: 40:04

Now, right, so I'll give you a little bit of backstory or history. So when it came to censorship before, like prior to the electronics coming in, it used to be that there were a group of people who worked in the mail room and they would slice open your letter and they would read it and they would, I mean, casually browse through it and say, okay, there's nothing that's glaring. And then they would make sure there was nothing physically in your envelope that would be considered contraband and they would just staple it back, shut and send it to you. For people who've been doing time for a while, we know that was frustrating because often that meant your letter would be cut in half. I mean, they were processing so much mail it was just like open it up, yeah, okay, shove it back in, and you would end up with three pieces of your letter trying to piece it back together. But on outgoing mail that really wasn't scrutinized too much unless you were on a certain watch, like they have here in Ohio. They have what's called ST stg, which is security gang threat, and so if you're on stg watching you were writing to somebody who they thought was you know, I don't know, um, a threat, then they would read your letter to make sure, like they would censor, like gang talk, you know, gang members tend to use certain words, certain terms and slang, and so if you got mail coming in that had that stuff, they would censor it. If you had mail going out, they would censor it.

Speaker 1: 41:38

If you were in isolation, a lot of times your mail was censored going out. The only mail that wasn't allowed to be censored was legal mail. It just had to be opened in front of you by a um, a ceo most often it was like a sergeant or lieutenant and then they would give it to you, um, but, like I said, nobody really expected their stuff going out to be, you know, censored, unless they were under some type of watch. If they thought you were, uh, under suspicion of smuggling stuff in, uh, whether that be contraband drugs, you know, coordinating some type of uh gathering of inmates, anything like that then okay, yeah, they would read your stuff. But prior to electronics, no outgoing mail was released. When electronics came in, there was this huge annoyance factor sorry if you hear my bumps, I just bumped the table. There was this huge annoyance factor because all of a sudden it was automated, and when it's automated it's scrutinized a lot closer but a lot vaguer, like anything.

Speaker 1: 42:54

If you put a word in there that's like a trigger word, it didn't really say like contextualize how that word's used, you know. It would just be like no, this was a word that flagged it and your stuff would be denied. For me, the most annoying part about that and this is still true to this day when they deny your stuff, they don't tell you why. So the inmate a lot of times won't even be notified that they got something censored and didn't get it. If they were, it would just be like hey, you got something and it was censored.

Speaker 1: 43:30

Like it wouldn't say who it was from. It wouldn't say what the subject matter was. It won't say if it was, you know, physical contraband. It wouldn't say if it was a picture. It wouldn't say like anything, just like hey, you got a piece of correspondence that was censored as the sender. If you're out here, it would not tell you that it never made it. If you're out here, it would not tell you that it never made it. It just started telling me on the GTL app that it was accepted or denied, kind of like read receipts on your iPhone. Sure, it just started doing that. And I would get pissed off when me and you took those pictures with the slate boards with our kids, oh yeah, with our back-to-school boards going into third grade or whatever.

Speaker 1: 44:14

Yeah, we had a slate board and we wrote on it with a grease marker and we had each of our kids do one too. I'm going to third grade. My teacher is so-and-so, my favorite color is this, my favorite food is that. Well, each of us in our family did it and we took pictures of it and I sent it to some of the guys in prison, I sent it to warren, I sent it to wise, you know, I sent it to my dude chad. And they're all at different institutions and each institution has their own set of rules.

Speaker 1: 44:43

Each state has their own set of rules, and so it was like some people got it, it was fine, some people. It was like some people got it, it was fine, some people. It was flagged. I'm like, why was this flagged? When I sent pictures to them of me and you on our motorcycles, it was flagged. It was denied.

Speaker 1: 45:00

I'm like, what the heck? I called the institution. The institution was like eh, we ain't got nothing to do with that, you got to call GTL. So I'm like it's your guys rules, though they have to follow, I guess. So I called GTL.

Speaker 1: 45:17

I was on hold with him for like 20 minutes and this person finally came and they couldn't tell me why it was denied. But they said hey, here's a list of the rules which, by the way, is not published anywhere. You can't go to the GTL website, you can't go to the ODRC website and see this list of rules or anything. And I kept getting frustrated because I'm like you got to give me my money back or you got to tell me what rules to follow, and the rules were just so asinine.

Speaker 1: 45:47

I just did a search online right here and the only state I could find that published these rules was what was it? Nevada, nebraska, nebraska, nebraska was the only place that published these rules. And the rules are so stupid. I'm going to read them to you because they're stupid. Let's see here. So this is on the Nebraska Department of Correctional Services website and it says criteria to send photos using GTL. Screenshots containing the following are not allowed or are subject to change no hand signs, including peace signs or middle fingers. Of course we can understand middle fingers, but no peace signs.

Speaker 2: 46:30

Or hand signs generally.

Speaker 1: 46:31

No hand signs at all Waving yeah, this was stupid because in some of the pictures, like us on the motorcycles, I was throwing a peace sign. I couldn't understand why this photo kept getting denied. So no items that depict violence or illegal activity. No pictures of visitors with large amounts of money. No items that might incite violence or illegal activity. No nude or partially nude male or female, including Including infants, newborns and including drawings or cartoons. No individuals clothed or in panties, bra, sheer, negligee or nightgowns, including bathing suits. Adults or children um. No sexual gestures, even when clothed. No drug use, including tobacco. No images of offenders or offender information. No images of social media or text. Gtl will not refund the cost of rejected photos.

Speaker 2: 47:34

Now some of those make sense.

Speaker 1: 47:35

Some of those make sense.

Speaker 2: 47:37

I think like particularly protecting kids. Yeah, those ones I can get behind, but I think that because they are not, it's not a person looking at the images, it is a computer looking at images and automatically rejecting. That's where the complication comes in in terms of the censorship.

Speaker 1: 47:58

Yep, now I can tell you without having the list in front of me, remembering back to that phone call where the GTL customer service person just read this list to me and they rambled them off so fast. I can tell you that list was a lot longer than this one, mm-hmm. And they told me it's specific to institution. And I'm like why is this not published anywhere? How do I follow the rules? And they were telling me our slate board. It was denied because you can't send any pictures of children not accompanied by an adult. And I was like what the fuck?

Speaker 2: 48:37

But it was also the text. They said it was because of the text in the photos.

Speaker 1: 48:41

So, if you notice, they said no images from social media or text. So if you got text on your shirt, you got text in like anything you know, especially not a social media post that has text in it or a screen. Well, in Ohio you're not allowed to send screenshots at all, right? So I had stuff get and I couldn't even figure out. I couldn't even remember if it was a screenshot. I'm like that's not a screenshot, I don't know. Apparently they can tell. But yeah, I was like well, I'm trying to send pictures from the kids' school play. Sure, there's no other kids in it, it's just our kid, but it's not accompanied by an adult.

Speaker 1: 49:19

Pictures of us at the beach, you know kids in full coverage, bathing suits, they got floaties and everything on they're like nope. So when you talk about the censorship aspect and like that's shitty, just to be frank, because now they've basically robbed these inmates of a chance to be part of our family.

Speaker 2: 49:44

Right. The censorship going in is really challenging because it limits what they can see of the world outside of prison because of these rules. I think what's interesting about Troy's article is the discussion of censorship on the outgoing now too, particularly because of the e-communications. So Troy, within this article, talks about how he just received a J-Pay message that says email censored. Reason other no comments, and there was a lot of fear around that because an email leading to an investigation can get you put in solitary confinement. And so why?

Speaker 2: 50:28

What did I do? That was threatening, with no explanation, right, and so they couldn't have any insight into that until the prisoner counselor came back on Monday and that waiting period of trying to figure out what happened and why and then learning it was just because of the use of the term corrections officer in an article that Troy was writing for publication came back flagged, and I think that that is the increasing threat and harm is it's not just family can't communicate anything that's happening really freely from outside of prison, like to try to bring them into our world, sharing vacation photos, et cetera, but also now on the back end of it, incarcerated people can't freely write and express themselves without their e-communications being stopped and censored.

Speaker 1: 51:20

Yeah, I can tell you I'm always the one that is off topic and expressing personal experiences, so sorry about that, but I remember when they were still fine-tuning J-Pay, when we had J-Pay before GTO and my email was flagged. This was the first time ever, actually, that I had an email flag going out. It was the only time actually. But it was flagged because the person I was talking to said hey, so-and-so got locked up, they're in this prison. And I said man, tell them to said hey, so-and-so got locked up, they're in this prison. And I said man, tell them. I said and they flagged it because you're not allowed to write inmate to inmate, right, you know from institutions. So they thought like, hey, I'm trying to use this person as a go-between to send messages and they flagged it Once again.

Speaker 1: 52:13

They didn't tell me that they flagged it once again. They didn't tell me that I had to really like hunt down the mailroom sergeant, like what the fuck is going on my mail? And it took them like doing some digging on their own side and then coming to tell me like, oh, this was the reason. But it's really crappy and panic inducing when you just simply get yep first if your family's telling you hey, man, I've been sending you stuff, did you get this, did you get that? And you're like, no, I never got word. Or when you simply get, hey, this was flagged, no reason, no comments, Like you're like, oh shit, what do I got going on? Are they watching me? Are they looking at me? You can go to the hole, to a solitary confinement in prison for no reason at all, while they conduct an investigation. So if you think like, oh, all eyes are on me and I didn't even know, that's panic inducing, that's you know whatever.

Speaker 2: 53:08

I think Troy talks raises a really good point here too, about how this kind of censorship impacts incarcerated people because they're not going to try a different method. So you were really self-directed in figuring out why and how you could like work around that. Yeah, I'd take a no for that. But Troy talks about here and you've talked about this too that other people don't have that same type of motivation. So he really highlighted, like when he talked to his prisoner counselor, that he was like can I just put it in the USPS? Like, can I write it and put it in the USPS mail? Is it going to receive the same censorship? And the PC was like no, I don't see why you couldn't do that.

Speaker 2: 53:49

So e-communication failed, so he just wrote it out. But how many other people are going to take that if my quick, fast, convenient email or you know whatever letter gets stopped? Am I the type of person that's going to pick up a pen and paper and put it in the mail? Do I have the resources to do so? Do I have the stamps? Do I have the paper? Do I have the pen, um, to do that? And he like. So it's not just a limitation on censorship, is a limitation on traditional like writing tools and not being able to take that communication further. And who's really going to pick that up and move the ball forward?

Speaker 1: 54:27

Yeah, I mean do you have the resources to try to get around this? Do you have the resources to then write it out and send it through the mail? Do you have the time for that? I'll tell you that this electronic email thing, they're pushing it to be the sole option of communication and it's often a monopoly. You don't have the choice of going with GTL or JPEG or Secure, or uh, uh, what's the other one, it doesn't matter. But you know there's a few companies that do it, but you as the inmate don't have the option. It's whatever the state or the feds go with on a contract.

Speaker 1: 55:07

Um, I've seen where we've had a lot of problems with them and you just had to endure it because they were under contract. You know, like, until the contract runs out, they do a bid for something else like this is what you're stuck with. Yeah, um, I also know that I've gone to uh in ohio. It was the unit manager. I've gone to a unit manager or I've gone to the mailroom sergeant like hey, man, you guys are playing games with my mail and they've pulled it up, which he, uh, troy, talked about in his article. Like they pull it up on the computer screen. Yeah, I mean, they're looking at it. So you got to kind of be bold enough to look around and look at their screen. But like we had a good enough rapport where they spun the screen around and looked at it with me and they were like I don't see what's wrong with this.

Speaker 2: 55:58

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 55:58

You know, as a you know a lieutenant level staff member, they're like I don't see what's wrong with this. They have the power to overrule it. Out of my probably 20 times that I've gone in there about mail, I think that they've only overruled it once. 20 times that I've gone in there about mail, I think that they've only overruled it once and it was because it was actual need that I got this information. But for some reason they don't really like to do that. I mean, there's a mailroom sergeant who's in charge of that. So maybe it's like I don't want to step on their toes or I don't want to draw attention to me, because obviously they're going to know they overruled it and if it becomes a habit or something they might try to say there's some type of relationship there. I don't really know, but I know that it's very defeating when you keep having this happen and every time you go in there it's like let's see what's wrong with this.

Speaker 1: 56:50

So Troy in his article talked about how you begin to self-center.

Speaker 1: 56:57

You begin to somewhat. I mean you're talking about very benign things, maybe you could be talking to your grandma, but now all of a sudden you're trying to talk in code and stuff like that, like I don't want to say it like this because it'll get flagged, so I got to draw it out and say it in a roundabout manner or not talk about it at all, which changes your message, and that's huge. When you talk about First Amendment rights and there have been some lawsuits where inmates have won, because if this is going to be our sole level of communication, and when you talk about Troy mentioned, if we were writing letters through the usps, the usps is a government entity and they have oversight. Yep, well, now jpay and gtl and all these, these are private organizations. They don't, they don't have to go through all this government or uh, oversight, and now it's just, you have to accept whatever their ruling is. And so this is a big issue. This is a really big issue because it calls into question do inmates have First Amendment rights?

Speaker 2: 58:06

Yeah, I mean I would unequivocally say yes, but I think that you're right in that this broad censorship really is bringing in this question of is it a violation of constitutional rights, particularly the First Amendment, you know, guaranteeing that freedom of speech component and how far do those rights extend and at what point are they? If they ever go away, when are they reinstated right? And I think that points to the bigger systemic problems that we always talk about, about incarceration wholly, as this is not the only right that is consistently violated for people who are incarcerated, which, when we continue to take those things away that are fundamentally given to people as rights within this country, then it becomes slavery right. So that's the component that is really important to me. You talked about the self censorship too. I think we can expand there as well that this is something we see pretty consistently in or outside of prison, this notion that well, if they're going to flag in any way, I'm just going to write it a different way or not write it at all. Right, you begin to adapt the way that you work within the world, and I don't want to just continuously talk about my dissertation or the doctorate or anything like that. But I found that that was true within that research too, which is very separate of this.

Speaker 2: 59:34

But that legislation, this anti-DEI stuff happening across our nation right now, is causing this overreaction within institutions to go ahead and cancel all their stuff. Target is a good example. Target canceled everything DEI because there was a threat of legislation. Because there was a threat of legislation. So even though it hadn't gone through the right legal hoops and all of the things to become an actual law at that point it was the threat of the law caused this huge self-censorship and this huge loss of programming and we are seeing that happen really widely. So I think it's not just the individual level which we're seeing at the prisons with incarcerated people, like they're going to flag it anyway because I said CO, so I'm just not going to write it at all or whatever, right, but that takes away the public's understanding of what prison experiences are like, when we're no longer hearing about the people who are experiencing it firsthand. Longer hearing about the people who are experiencing it firsthand yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:00:36

So had experiences with some guys that I kept in contact with after prison that I was inside with and I questioned, like their way of thinking because it seemed unstable and unrealistic. But after having reading this article and kind of connecting some dots, I'm like I can totally understand how somebody would be like that. And so these people in particular were kind of like conspiracy nuts. They seemed to always be paranoid. They're listening, they're watching. I got to be careful about this. I'm like I'm going to fuck down.

Speaker 1: 1:01:12

You seem a little high, strong, right, you know. But then when you think of it like this, like you come from a place where every move and every action you do is scrutinized um, every word you say through electronic communication over the phone is monitored and recorded. It's scrutinized. You got to watch how you say stuff. And I started thinking about, um, my communication with like warren and wise and chad and all that. Like there's been times where somebody's been like hey, man, you know this dude, he makes me uncomfortable bro like what's he in here for? I told you guys do that all the time. Well then, uh, when I report back, I know that I can't say certain stuff, right, so I'm sitting here like listing it off. Like bro, he's got, you know, two counts of the R word and you know I was like you can't say that.

Speaker 1: 1:02:04

If I were to say the word rape, then it would be like, all right, shut everything. Now, you know, start watching his mail. For you know, like so I was like, well, well, you know, uh, he's, this happened and that happened. We're even talking in your personal. We could be talking about a movie. You're talking about a movie. You'd be like, oh so, dude had to. You can't say like, oh man, he went here and killed somebody. Like oh, so I was watching this documentary where this guy came in here.

Speaker 1: 1:02:30

And you know, you guys know from dealing with facebook, you got to say like unalived or something weird. And it's like damn, I mean hell, the mention of Facebook. That goes to show that we're all being censored. And to some degree it changes your method of operand to where now it's not just a single isolated incident but it's your new norm. You're always constantly wondering about the words that come out of my mouth. You see people that try to speak their mind, but they have a public position. The next thing, you know, they're putting out these public apologies. I'm sorry, I didn't really mean what I said. Sorry, I didn't really mean what I said, but it's like it's okay to feel that way, it's okay to say that, but if you're going to offend, even a single person can't do it.

Speaker 1: 1:03:30

So, anyway, I would also like to talk about book bans. Okay, book bans are a big thing in prison media in general. So, before once again, electronics used to be able to order CDs, order tapes, movies, et cetera, but books were the biggest thing and they would issue a printed list of currently banned media and it was constantly being updated. And I know that I tried to order, like books like the 40 laws of power banned don't even try it. Uh, 33 strategies of war bad um. I tried to order a book called hitman it was a fictional book by rex farrell bad, like, don't even try, um. But also music, and music was the more controversial one because it was very vague. Like, I ordered an anthony hamilton cd and they denied it because they said it could incite a riot true story.

Speaker 2: 1:04:33

That man with his love lyrics.

Speaker 1: 1:04:35

I was pissed man.

Speaker 2: 1:04:37

Said, it's hard.

Speaker 1: 1:04:40

I'm sitting here like bro Charlene. Charlene is inciting riots, bro, so it's really controversial and I don't know what committee puts this stuff on this list, like what committee puts this stuff on this list. But I know that it is unfortunate that the bulk of this list is made up of black material, you know. So you couldn't get even some stuff like roots.

Speaker 2: 1:05:08

you can't get the book roots right and I and you know to parallel what's happening. You know, within us context we're seeing a ton of book banning and it's also a lot of marginalized identity, authors and topics like particularly race, gender, lgbtq status. All of those things are being just said that and it's not even just school, because everybody's like, well, they shouldn't be talking about that stuff in school. I'm not going to get into that today, but generally they are banning these books in all these places. But what's different is that private entities have the ability to push back and put those books out for the public to get anyway. So you can say it's banned, but I can still go order that on Amazon. Prison's not like that. If it's banned, it's banned. There is no way to get that in.

Speaker 1: 1:05:54

Right and on a bigger level, outside of the prison scope, I think it's not just wrong that they ban the stuff, but the way they label the stuff. You know to label something divisive when it's something like your dissertation, like these divisive concepts, but like I can't change my race. I can't change my race, I can't change my you know, sexual uh preference or gender identity and stuff. So it's like now that you've labeled it this and it's basically banned, like what does that do for me? Because I'm, I'm it you know we're not talking about like hey, you can't wear that sweatshirt right well, I guess I gotta go change my sweatshirt.

Speaker 1: 1:06:34

It's like oh, so I'm to go change my sweatshirt. It's like oh, so I'm the problem.

Speaker 2: 1:06:37

Well, to your point, it's also things that promote critical thought. It's like we don't want you to have this information, because what type of problem might that pose to my power of positionality if you now have this information of critical thought and intellectual growth? Those things pose threat to me, so let's just go ahead and put it on the banned book list.

Speaker 1: 1:07:04

And we've seen with. I'm not going to bring up anybody's name or any group of people, but we've seen how this group think takes any bit of information and they gather around it. So um may not be considered true, but if you say hey, I'm going to use the anthony hamilton example um say hey what was our anthony hamilton wedding song?

Speaker 2: 1:07:26

it's bugging me. We talked what, what is it? I didn't mean to interrupt you like that, but what is the song we played at our wedding? And you got to put me on the spot, right here for all these people. Your memory is so good.

Speaker 1: 1:07:38

Yep, I was in the middle of saying something. Go ahead. So to use the Anthony Hamilton example, if you have, say like I said, you got black people who listen to Anthony Hamilton, and then you have the authoritative group who says Anthony Hamilton is a problem, they could incite riots, well then you have this opposite group of people who you know, of course they might not be black, but they like Anthony Hamilton is a problem, not because they listened to his music and thought he was a problem, but because the authority says he's a problem. So now they've created this friction between these two groups because it's like so it's just creating division and it's unjust to label somebody like this as a shit starter. Basically, I mean, he makes love songs and neo soul music and you've now labeled him as someone who could incite a riot, as if that was his purpose, right goal and making this music. Um, so that's pretty fucked up.

Speaker 1: 1:08:57

When it comes to books, I mean, unfortunately, the, the books that seem to be banned most often are self-help books that do not follow the conventional code. Um, so like 48 laws power. I mentioned those. The title alone is probably why it was banned, but it's all like giving historical examples of how Caesar might have done this and gives you insight to it. But it's just banned. You're not getting anything like that, anything that looks at politics outside of what's commonly acceptable. Yeah, it's not getting in, especially not if it's a current thing that is causing friction in the community, like I'm pretty sure I couldn't send any book about Donald Trump in there right now, Like that shit not making it. I'm just saying, right, no matter what view, from what viewpoint it's looking at them, it's probably not going to make it in there, right?

Speaker 2: 1:10:02

I think the final point that I would make on this article, unless you have anything else, is that there are so many parallels as to what is happening inside of institutions to what is happening outside of institutions, right, but that we're not talking about it. The suppression of incarcerated voices isn't like an isolated issue. It is part of a larger national trend of silencing dissent, especially among communities that are already over-policed and marginalized, and I think that this increase of electronic censorship, particularly in outgoing mail, is only exacerbating a problem that was already present, right. So I just I think it's important for us. I'm glad that Troy wrote this article. Again, that was Troy Chapman. The title of the article, which we will make sure to link, is Prison Censorship Goes Beyond Book Bans. I think it's important.

Speaker 2: 1:10:56

We wanted to highlight this one today because it really is talking about the lived experiences and realities of people who are in prisons right now, and we're trying to show that this isn't unique to incarceration. So the things that we're dealing with in current rhetoric right now, the things that we're talking about and discussing with colleagues, particularly like I, work in the government sphere, so we're talking a lot about what's happening right now at a federal level and at a state level and how it's impacting us at the local level. But, like, this is not again, history repeats. It doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes. That is a Mark Twain quote. Actually I knew you'd say it eventually, quote. Actually I knew you'd say it eventually. With incarceration, this has long been the standard. It's just now being enforced in a way that is taking away more from people who have already been taken away, who have already had the most taken away. I guess is the way that I'll say that. Any final thoughts from you on this one? Sorry.

Speaker 1: 1:11:56

I don't know if it's a final thought. It's really kind of like opening up the conversation, because I'm sorry I do that. I had a thought about an earlier stated thing and it's like if electronic communication is going to be pushed as the only form of communication, there's a huge potential for abuse which we are already seeing, and now you just kind of got to dissect it and apply it to different areas, like legal mail. I saw that when I went to GTL they gave me an option to say, hey, are you a counselor, like a lawyer? So then I'm guessing that they get certain privileges that the average account doesn't. But if I were to physically handwrite or say, send in copies of case law, then it doesn't get opened until it reaches the inmate, whereas electronically you can tell me you're not looking at it.

Speaker 1: 1:12:55

But who really knows? Right, you know um, and so the potential for abuse there is insane, um, even in education. So, like um, there's some some textbooks that are banned in prison, but now inmates that are going to college and prison, it's all on the tablet now, it's all filtered through J-Pay, it's all filtered through GTO, even your correspondence with your professor. So I don't know, man, now that I'm reading this article and now that I'm thinking on it more, I'm just sitting here like this is like a gross violation and there's no oversight. Like how do you give a organization like J-Pay or GTL the power to filter your educational material through?

Speaker 2: 1:13:47

it Sure.

Speaker 1: 1:13:48

You know that's I don't know. It's gross to me, so I'm sorry about that. You guys, of course we're high-lighting all these points from this article, but I would like to challenge you guys to go and take a look at the articles yourselves. We'll leave the link in there. The Prison Journalism Project is the website. Let me see Is that a com or org or what? Let's see. Prisonjournalismprojectorg, the website. Let me see. Is that a com or org or what? Let's see. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This one, prisonjournalismprojectorg. Glad I thought of that.

Speaker 1: 1:14:22

All right, folks, we're going to bring this episode of Lockdown Legacy to an end, but I want to remind you all to go to the PrisonJournalismProjectorg. Check out some of these articles for yourself, especially if you're the type who wants that raw, unfiltered message. You know these are coming from guys that are currently or formerly incarcerated, so they don't have to go through the mainstream lens. And thanks for all your support. I'm glad DJ got to come on here and tell her own story about her dissertation and the PhD journey. Other than that, we got nothing else for you this week, man. We're going to do another episode like this next week, so stay tuned. We did have two articles that we wanted to cover today but obviously ran out of time. But can't wait, it's another good one Later.