Warren & Christine: Love Beyond Bars

Warren and Christine's love story defies every expectation of what a prison relationship "should" be. Their connection began with a simple but profound question on a pen pal website: "When was the last time you had a great conversation with someone?" Christine, running a pen pal service from Germany, was immediately struck by the thoughtfulness behind Warren's words—a refreshing departure from the typical messages she received.

What started as emails and letters quickly evolved into daily phone conversations that have continued uninterrupted for over six years. They speak multiple times daily, sharing everything from mundane moments to profound realizations, creating an extraordinary intimacy despite the physical distance between a German household and an Ohio prison cell.

The remarkable aspect of their relationship isn't just its existence despite barriers—it's their refusal to accept limitations. "We've never looked at each other as being in a prison relationship," Warren explains, describing how they hold each other to the same standards of honesty, accountability, and growth they would in any relationship. This foundation allows them to navigate conflicts with unusual grace and wisdom.

Their approach to disagreements reveals the depth of their connection. They never end conversations in anger and have developed specific phrases to help de-escalate tense moments. When Christine feels herself becoming upset, Warren gently says, "We ain't doing that," instantly diffusing tension. Their philosophy is beautifully simple yet profound: when facing challenges, you can either wait for your partner to catch up, go back for them, or carry them until they can stand on their own—but leaving is never an option.

Beyond their present connection, Warren and Christine have created a shared vision for their future—planning to move to Egypt once Warren completes his supervision. Christine has expanded Warren's worldview beyond America's borders, transforming his mindset from merely surviving to truly living. Their story proves that when two minds with different backgrounds come together, entirely new possibilities emerge that neither could have imagined alone.

Ready to hear more incredible stories of resilience and transformation? Subscribe to Lockdown to Legacy and join us as we explore how people turn their most challenging circumstances into platforms for growth and positive change.

Chapters

• 1:45 Welcome to Season Two
• 2:07 Introducing Warren and Christine
• 3:34 How Their Relationship Began
• 10:34 Communication as Relationship Lifeblood
• 18:37 Being Each Other's Support System
• 31:06 Redefining Love Through Prison Barriers
• 44:22 Future Plans Beyond Prison Walls
• 53:59 When Different Backgrounds Create New Possibilities

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:04

Hey everybody, welcome back to season two of Lockdown to Legacy. I'm your host, Remy Jones, and from time to time I will be joined by my co-host, dj, who just so happens to also be my awesome sauce wife. I also have a couple of close friends that are still incarcerated who will be regular contributors, and together we will bring you the real on dealing with the criminal justice system from multiple angles. A lot of what we share will be real experiences from both currently and formerly incarcerated people like myself, along with current events that affect those impacted by the legal system. So thank you for tapping in, thank you for sticking with us from season one. Now let's get to it.

Speaker 1: 2:08

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Locked on the Legacy. I'm your host, remy Jones, and today I have a very special episode for you guys. Today, warren will be joining us, but with a little bit of a twist, we will also be joined by Christine, and for those of you who, of course, don't know Christine or haven't heard of Christine, christine is Warren's lady. They are a rock for each other and I'm telling you, man, like their story is so insightful and impactful, inspiring, that we've always said, like, man, we got to have this episode where you guys just tell us about yourselves and what it takes for you guys to be together and what it means for you guys to help each other through this journey, and so it's long overdue, but it's finally here, and I also, before we get to it, want to say thank you to both Warren and Christine for being so vulnerable and so open by sharing this part of their relationship with all of us, because they thought it was important too. So, without further ado, let me say welcome, warren and Christine.

Speaker 3: 3:35

Welcome Warren and Christine.

Speaker 2: 3:36

Hello.

Speaker 3: 3:37

This is a bit strange, eh.

Speaker 2: 3:40

Yeah, talk about I wasn't going to be here at 2.30.

Speaker 3: 3:45

I told you, I was going to be here. She was asking whether I was going to make it on time. I told her I was going to be here at 2.30 here today. Well, how do you know I'll be there? You gonna make it?

Speaker 1: 4:01

yeah, I knew you'd come, okay okay, I'm the only one that was uh late. I was actually um down here watching a movie, and then I looked at my watch. I was like oh crap, and so I ran upstairs.

Speaker 3: 4:15

You better not forget, otherwise I would come over there personally to kick your ass.

Speaker 1: 4:21

Oh, I do not want that problems.

Speaker 3: 4:27

I do not want to smoke. Oh, it's so nice to talk to you guys.

Speaker 1: 4:33

I'm glad to have you both here and. I'm glad it's working out as far as technical.

Speaker 3: 4:37

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I can hear you nice and clear, and that's wonderful.

Speaker 1: 4:45

Great, I got this fancy new piece of equipment. Great, I got this fancy new piece of equipment. It runs my phone call through the soundboard and then I just talk to the microphone. So I'll be sure to give you all the details.

Speaker 3: 5:00

That's a bit nice, isn't it? It is yeah, so how do you want to go forward with this?

Speaker 1: 5:10

You know, I don't know, you guys are such big deals that I'm all nervous now. I never be nervous to talk to anybody.

Speaker 3: 5:19

What are you like? You're not nervous. You're the coolest dude I've ever come across. Oh, that's such a compliment Whoa whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Speaker 2: 5:28

Well, beside you, of course. Okay, there's such a compliment. Whoa whoa, whoa whoa. Well beside you, of course. Okay, there you go there you go Okay, put it out there, Dan Put it out there.

Speaker 1: 5:35

I mean, we're so much alike that you know I would take that as a compliment coming in a second a close second.

Speaker 3: 5:45

Yeah, yeah, of course, absolutely, and there's miles and miles of space between the one and the two.

Speaker 2: 5:51

Absolutely, there you go, butter me up, butter me up, all right.

Speaker 1: 5:58

So I guess, to start it off, we'll have you introduce yourselves, or maybe I'll introduce you. These are my two good friends, mr Warren and Miss Christine. For those of you who don't know, of course everybody knows Warren. He has been a regular contributor to the podcast. And Chris, of course, is his other half Better half, I don't know.

Speaker 4: 6:24

We'll leave that up for debate.

Speaker 1: 6:25

Yeah, that's it. But the one compliments the two and the two shall be one and there we go, that's all we'll leave it at. But so we know a lot about you, warren, and we know about you. Know you're always on the move, you're always trying to help people, you always got your hand in something. But what people don't know is you know, even the strong folks got to have somebody to keep them strong right, keep them grounded, absolutely. You tend to have that same mind, that, uh, that over analytical mind, and often need people to bring us back home. You know, bring us back down to earth.

Speaker 2: 7:08

And so that's what Christina is for you yes, absolutely, she, she definitely is. Is is for you yes, absolutely, she definitely is my balance. It's strange because a lot of people always say to me that they never see me frustrated or they never see me lose control, or it's like I'm always calm and I say yeah, because I give it all to Christine my crazy, my wow, my frustration. I give it all to her. So by the time I'm done with her and bleed her ears, then I'm ready to be calm with the world again. And I always give the analogy of the duck on the water, where you see the duck sliding along smoothly but you see underneath, the feet are battling like crazy. That's normal. But Christine is my calm, she is the place that I go to when everything else is having me. At that tipping point I can talk to her and by the end of the call I know I'm going to reach that calm place again, Absolutely.

Speaker 3: 8:04

That's a good compliment and where he is, like you said, the logical person and I'm always you know, he's always how can I say it? I used to call himself iRobot when I first met him and yeah, he is very logical. I'm the opposite, I'm more emotional. Yeah, so we complement each other greatly in that aspect, I think, where I am much more a touchy-feely kind of person and I am highly emotional, as Warren said, and that brings a nice balance every time.

Speaker 1: 8:48

Well, I can tell you guys from my experience that I am very much the rational thinker in my relationship and Debbie is very much the emotional one, and it does bring great balance. You know, somebody can always be the one that takes the lead in different situations, which is very much necessary because, especially with parenting, you know, we have different kids, different personalities, and I'm always like teach the lesson and she's like calm down. You know, sometimes it's not about the lesson. We got to check on the person Right and I'm like I'll be in another room when the lesson needs to be taught.

Speaker 2: 9:36

Yeah, but the lesson still needs to be taught.

Speaker 1: 9:40

So yeah, man.

Speaker 2: 9:41

Well, first off.

Speaker 1: 9:42

I would like, having gotten a chance to meet you, christine, in person we'll talk more about that later chance to meet you, christine, in person? We'll talk more about that later. I gotta say how thankful I am for your presence in his life as a good friend. It makes me happy to know that you're there.

Speaker 3: 9:59

Oh, thank you. That's a nice thing to say. Thank you so much. Juan tells me that all the time, but then he's biased so I can't open it. Sometimes I think you know, is that really what you mean? But thank you so much for that.

Speaker 1: 10:16

So I don't know which one of you guys want to go first, but I got a bunch of questions. I mean, we all got a bunch of questions and I know that they can benefit everyone. So I would like to know how did you guys meet. Tell me about how your relationship started and how has it evolved over the amount of time.

Speaker 3: 10:38

Right, okay, my daughter and me, many years ago we started to run a penthouse service. We started to run a pen pal service because I was in contact with I had 10 friends on death row in America and I've been in contact with them for many, many years. And my daughter also had 10 friends in prison in America and when her friends found out about, told their cellmates about their friendship, they all wanted to get pen pals oh, can she find me somebody? And so we came up with this idea to start a pen pal service and that's what we did. We ran it for about four and a half years and during that time we were also in contact with many other pen pal services on the internet and we all exchanged with each other whatever, whoever, we had on our books.

Speaker 3: 11:43

And one day this picture came up with this beautiful post. And to tell the truth, I wasn't looking so much at the picture. It was the words of the post that touched me deeply. It was so different to what normally. You know the guys who were in touch with us. They used to write us and say, right, this is what I want to say to women, to introduce myself on my pen, on my pen pass. And it was always the same Yo mama, what's up? How's it hanging, All that kind of stuff. And yeah, you get kind of numb to that kind of introduction. And then all of a sudden there was this introduction, so completely different to everything else I've ever experienced. I thought, wow, that is so nice, and then I closed it down.

Speaker 2: 12:38

It was in a form of a question. I started it as when was the last time you had a great conversation with someone?

Speaker 4: 12:44

Yeah, with someone.

Speaker 2: 12:45

The whole ad was about the feel, the texture, the wanting of having this conversation again and again, and again.

Speaker 3: 12:58

And so I went about my business and it wouldn't let me go. I thought I need to find that advert again. I couldn't find it. I looked for it for two days. It was gone and I couldn't remember what website it came from. Oh, I was so frustrated. And then, all of a sudden, on the third day, oh, there it was again. Oh, my goodness me, yeah, that was it. I took a screenshot of it and I thought I'm not going to let it go and I did something I'd never done. I wrote an email and then, as I sent that off, I thought maybe I should write a letter, because he said in the post you know, there's nothing nicer than writing letters. So I wrote a letter and sent that off, but obviously that takes about 10 days to go get to America. And then, all of a sudden, the next day I got an email back and he was very happy to hear from me. And yeah, that was it. The rest is history.

Speaker 2: 14:03

We've been in touch with him ever since. Let me give the listeners some background information. Okay, so, first, christine is from Germany. Second, there's a large age gap between Christine and myself and I remember when I was on the pen pile site, I was writing and I specifically told them that I didn't want to hear from anyone under 40.

Speaker 2: 14:28

I kept getting 20 and 30-year-old responses and it was clearly where 20 and 30-year-olds were mentally and where I was at mentally. We were just in two different places. But I had noticed that they had a group from NASA come in and they were a young woman from NASA and an older woman from NASA. But I connected more with the older woman and then we had a reentry fair and again there was a young woman who came in and there was an older woman who came in and I connected more with the older person and I started telling myself the problem that I'm having is I'm fishing in the wrong pond. I'm not dealing with the age group, the appropriate age group. Now, this is what I knew prior to meeting Christine, and so when Christine wrote me, she and I had that same kind of connection.

Speaker 3: 15:21

And she didn't want to tell me how old she was at first, but she eventually told me she did.

Speaker 2: 15:23

She eventually told me, she eventually told me and I thought I said it strange because I'm realizing that I don't really have a lot of connection or things in common with younger women. It's the older women that I'm able to connect to more and once I alleviated that fear in her me and her just been rolling ever since, and that was back in 2018. And we've been going strong for the last six and a half years.

Speaker 3: 15:54

Yes, and yesterday we were there. That half year was up See.

Speaker 4: 15:59

I just remember that Six and a half years.

Speaker 3: 16:02

That's right yeah.

Speaker 1: 16:04

That is great man. It's interesting, though, that, even though technology is limited inside of prisons, you guys met, just like anybody else nine days man on the Internet. Yeah, if I had to take a wild guess, I'd probably say, like 85% of people nine days that are, you know, maybe 40 and under are probably meeting on the internet of some form.

Speaker 2: 16:35

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 16:36

So you know, same old thing, man. No shame in it at all. I mean, I met my wife on the internet.

Speaker 2: 16:44

Yeah, and one of the one of the things that, jeremy, is that Christine and I have never looked at each other as being in a prison relationship and we felt that limited us in a lot of manners. We hold each other to the same responsibility, same accountability and even treat each other the same way as if I was home. And the reason why that's important to me to bring that out to your audience is because there were certain things that she and I had went through with other individuals in relationships that we told ourselves that we were no longer going to settle for, and it didn't matter whether I was out there or in here, whether none of that mattered to us. There was still foundational, core things that we said we get involved with the next person this person will have, and neither one of us was looking for a relationship. She wasn't looking for a relationship, I wasn't looking for a relationship, I was just looking for someone that would be in my corner. So when I went to the parole board, they could say, listen, I know this man, I know this man character, I'm going to speak up for him. That's all I was looking for. And she was looking for someone to have a good conversation with.

Speaker 2: 17:56

And 18 days after we met each other. We just knew that this is a person I wanted to be with, and we always said that there's still criteria you have to meet. You have to be honest, and we always said that there's still criteria you have to meet. You have to be honest, you have to have integrity, you have to be able to commit, you have to be someone that I can grow with. You have to be someone I like.

Speaker 2: 18:14

It was that all the requirements were still there and we told them if you cannot do this, that's cool, we can be cool. We don't have to do anything else. I respect your choice, you respect my choice. But the idea that we didn't come in here thinking and some people still thought you know, but you guys ain't really in a relationship because you're all in prison and you don't really know what it's like, that's what they think. We didn't approach our relationship that way. We approached it in the same standard. I would hold to you out here, I'm going to hold to you in there, and that is one of the reasons why we're so strong in what we do and why we have the conversations, reasons why we're so strong in what we do and why we have the conversations and we plan our futures based on not something that's in a fantasy, but something that we're living right now.

Speaker 1: 18:55

Well, I know from my personal experience, especially my experience with pen pal websites in there, I know that a lot of guys in there approach the website as in it's going to alleviate some fantasy and I heard you mention that Right so pretty quickly it usually goes to a sexual conversation and I don't know if that has to do with how much time they've done or how much they're doing, but I know there was a point in time where I didn't want to talk about anything sexual anymore. I was like bro, I want a deeper conversation. I wanted somebody who would just let me break out the big words or deep concepts and we could have a great conversation. And I remember thanking people who provided that for me and they felt so awkward. I was like man, just thank you for this conversation, like you don't know how.

Speaker 1: 19:58

To be honest, man, because of prison, I started talking to myself a lot. Yeah, because I couldn't talk to other people, you know, especially not about anything emotional, about anything on a deep thought level. Me and Warren had many, many deep conversations and it was like we don't have many outlets for that, you know, and we would have to catch ourselves because we just be seeing each other in passing, and if we didn't like be mindful, we'd be standing there for 20 minutes like, oh man, I'm supposed to be going to this thing, and so it's not surprising to me that you guys connected on that level and that other people were shocked or in denial of it.

Speaker 3: 20:45

You know, when we first met I need to quickly come in and say something I worked in prison in england, in london, for six years and I I was so aware my office was on the wing with the men. I saw the men. There was 300 odd men on that wing and I was in contact with them all every day, throughout the day, and I saw the way they were oh, I've got've got a new woman. You know, I'm writing to her, she's sending me money, blah, blah, blah. So I was used to all these shenanigans that went on in the prison. And then when we did the pen pal site, you know, we were in touch with all our customers via email on a daily basis and they were always saying, oh, you know what? Yeah, this woman, oh, she's hot, I'm going to write to her, chris, can you get me on? And all this.

Speaker 3: 21:32

And so when I first met Warren, I thought, yeah, I need to have a look at this first, because I was very what's the word? I was very cautious initially. Yeah, that's another word. Yeah, absolutely. And so I approach this all. No, let's see how it pans out. And I just got deeper and I kept thinking, oh, I'm not sure if I can even go there. Oh, I'm not sure this is. Oh, that, that was a daily thing with me and yeah, we we had some hurdles to climb initially. Like Juan said, it was hard yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:12

That's good though. So I know that obviously, communication has, like media is totally important to you guys. You know, is it phone calls, is it letters? I know the value of a letter, so I want to know which do you guys gravitate more towards?

Speaker 2: 22:32

Well, when we first started, Christine used to write emails and letters. She was sweet like that, but once we started talking on the phone I was like I don't need them anymore. I want my phone calls. You know I am a person that's constantly writing emails and letters. I have been.

Speaker 2: 22:47

I'm lying, it's phone calls, Emails are too slow. Christine and I talk every single day. We've been talking every single day since 2018. And then she was coming over here to visit me at least once a year, and then COVID hit and so, when her visits were restricted, we started doing video visits. So every single day we talk first thing in the morning for an hour and a half, and then at night we talk for two hours every day, and on the weekends we talk for an hour and a half. We have an hour and a half video visit Saturday and Sunday. Saturday and Sunday and she and I have been doing the video visits since COVID, and we've been talking every day that many times since 2018.

Speaker 1: 23:38

That's awesome, man. Now I want to put some more background out there.

Speaker 3: 23:40

That is absolutely necessary yeah.

Speaker 1: 23:43

I know back in the earlier years of my 10 years in prison, man phone calls was hard, you know, especially if you weren't like calling somebody locally. This is before the days of. You know the Google phone numbers and the.

Speaker 2: 24:02

They're not necessary for overseas calls. Globaltel or GTL, I will give them this credit. They've dropped prices on the phones. They reduce the prices so greatly that you can talk to a person um affordably. So right now a call is like 33 cents for 30 minutes and, oh my goodness, christine's all the way across, all the way across the ocean. So she gets, she has a local number. So our calls is only 33 cents a call for half an hour.

Speaker 1: 24:36

Now.

Speaker 1: 24:37

I got to put some perspective to that, because when I talk about how phone calls were expensive back in the beginning of my bit, it used to cost me, I think, $18 to call my dad in Virginia and it was only 15 minutes $18 for 15 minutes back then and if it was local it was like $7. So $7 was a lick because if you was calling somebody, even on the other side of the state, it was a $10 call. So when the Google numbers and all that first started, you know we had to get them because $7 a call was a steal. And of course I don't know. I think it was like a what was it? Like a class action lawsuit or something that caused the phone calls to drop.

Speaker 1: 25:23

Because the average person, if you got no outside help, you make 17, 18 dollars a month off the state for your job as you work in prison. So obviously that was not fair because you still got to get your hygiene, any food items you can afford to get. So I'm really glad to hear 33 cents for 30 minutes, because you still got to get your hygiene, any food items you can afford to get and whatnot. So I'm really glad to hear 33 cents for 30 minutes. That's amazing.

Speaker 3: 25:47

Yeah, I was just going to say when we first started, video calls used to cost $9, you know Now they only cost $4 something. So that was such a blessing that they cut all those prices down.

Speaker 2: 26:03

And it's necessary, especially for relationships like ours, where communication is so key, and she and I need that constant communication. I tell her our communication is the lifeblood of our relationship. Without that we cannot survive. And so, yeah, the fact that they, they, have made it affordable and it's still expensive, but it's, it's something that, that, that that we're capable of doing.

Speaker 1: 26:34

Yeah, you guys are have been a great rock for each other. You know I'm sure you each got your own stuff going on and you're there for each other in different ways, but who's being there for you, who's the support system for you guys in all of this?

Speaker 2: 26:53

Honestly, we are each other's support system.

Speaker 3: 26:57

I mean, don't get me wrong.

Speaker 2: 26:59

I have my family, you know my family there. But my family tells Christine all the time we're glad you're there for him. They're like. I remember my sister had once told me the guy got upset because you know she was having babies and boyfriends. And I'm like you know I always been, you know I always been the center of your attention. And she told me. She said well, warren, you have to understand. At one time you were the main character in my life, but now you have fell back into a supporting role, still important, but not the main focus. And that's kind of how my family sees me. Christine is the main character in my life. They're just there to support us.

Speaker 2: 27:35

And so every single thing that goes on in my life, every up, every down, every conflict, every situation, I go to Christine and I remember telling guys here, like I talked to this woman about everything, they were like oh man, you ain't supposed to talk to your woman about everything. Man, you know it's going to cause friction, it's going to cause fighting. And I told her. I said I'm not afraid to fight with her, I'm not afraid to have an argument with her, afraid to fight with her, I'm not afraid to have an argument with her. Those things aren't strong enough to break us. But I know that any single time that I have any dilemma, any single time I have frustration, I can go to her and I know I'm going to feel like it's going to be alright or we're going to work through it together.

Speaker 2: 28:15

So, we have become one. Go ahead, Eddie.

Speaker 3: 28:21

The same goes for me. I don't have any support really, you know, because it's always the same what You're writing to a prisoner. Are you crazy? You're mental, all this kind of stuff. So I have no support. So Warren is definitely my only support in that aspect and whatever I go through in the day, you know buckling through by myself, I know the moment he calls it's all going to be okay. He's been my rock and he will continue to be my rock and that's wonderful. I mean don't get me wrong I met some of his family in my last visit to Ohio and I'm in touch with his sisters and his mom, and so that's wonderful. But ultimately, at the end of the day, it's just him and me and it's just good like that, you know that is something that I can say.

Speaker 1: 29:13

I agree with and, being from a perspective of a person that has been there for you and seeing now that Chris' presence is in the picture, I can't say that you don't come to me for a lot of stuff, no more, man. And I'm not offended, like I know some people might get offended by that and be like dang bro, what happened? Like stuff changed ever since she came in the picture. But I can honestly say, like man, I'm glad that you have her and I've had the struggle of trying to convince her that I'm here for her too.

Speaker 1: 29:58

So, no matter what, I'm always like, hey, hey, chris, you can reach out for me. And she's like, oh, but I don't want to bother. And I keep trying to convince her like no, no, I'm a support person too.

Speaker 3: 30:09

Right, we're on the same team yeah, but you also need to understand, jeremy. I hadn't met you personally and it was hard for me to do that, because I know how people reacted, you know, when I came and asked and oh yeah, this is going to last anyway, and how long is this going to go on? I needed to get to know you and once I met you, everything changed. Once I met you and Debbie, it was wonderful.

Speaker 1: 30:43

Hello. Welcome back, sir. Hello, Hello. So yeah, we were talking about how Christine didn't want to accept my support as genuine at first.

Speaker 2: 30:55

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 30:57

And so you know it took some convincing.

Speaker 3: 31:01

I didn't want to bother you too much.

Speaker 1: 31:04

It took some convincing, but I'm glad that you came through, and I think meeting you in person did have a lot to do with it. The last time you came to visit Ohio, I drove up there to visit Warren and got to meet you afterwards, so that was awesome.

Speaker 3: 31:22

The most beautiful thing of that day was when you and Debbie took me back to the Airbnb where I stayed and I said would you like to come in? And you both went yes, we want to spend some more time with you. Oh, wow, that was so wonderful. That was a really great gift what you gave me that day, and I was so grateful to you both for that. That was so wonderful. That was a really great gift what you gave me that day, and I was so grateful to you both for that.

Speaker 2: 31:44

It was just wonderful, that's all, and the fact that you know what you and Debbie offered Christine. Again, I never really had a good idea of what a friend was until you, like, I've had individuals who were friends. I didn't really, I didn't really grasp the concept because most of my most of my friends was based off a necessity we were in the same place, so I guess we was friends or we were doing the same thing. Hey, guess we're buddies. But it was never to the point to where I knew that an individual was there simply because they wanted to be there.

Speaker 2: 32:23

And I told you this multiple times. The fact that you went out your way to make me a part of the family, to keep me involved, to share your life, to share your wife, to share your children with me, that was something that already put you head and shoulders over other people who love and care and concern that you and Debbie showed Christine when she came over here. I'll forever be grateful to you guys for doing that for her, not because you had to, but simply because that's just the kind of people you are and it's good for Christine that I'm connected to.

Speaker 1: 32:59

I mean, to be honest, it was just a matter of, you know, you're my brother and this is your lady, so automatically, there's no, I don't know what anybody else provided, whether it was skepticism or you know, anything like that. It was just like, hey, what's up? Like you're part of the family. And then, on top of that, I mean the three people on this phone and the fourth that's missing, which is Debbie we're all talkers, man, I'm just putting that out there for the audience. We're all talkers.

Speaker 1: 33:34

When we had a visit me and you, and then Debbie, of course, was in the car doing school work and then we met up with Christine. We went out to eat. We talked the whole time while we ate. I mean, of course, we had to update about the visit and how your visit went and everything like that. But I mean, well, after we got done eating, we sat at the table for about an hour. Then we went back to the airbnb and um, we're talking about, we just sat there and talked for hours, man, hours. Yeah, and it felt so natural because, like I said, this is like, you know, meeting another part of the family, you know, right, right. So it wasn't like, oh, I got to get back down to Columbus. Oh, I got somewhere to go, thanks for coming by. It was like, forget what I got to do, I could do that tomorrow. And we just sat there and sat there and then we saw that it was starting to get dim in the room and we was like, oh crap.

Speaker 3: 34:42

I think we might need to hit the road. And this is the amazing thing. Normally when I tell people this, people always look at me and think I'm kidding. But I'm honest, I'm quite shy and it takes me a while. You know, I usually sit back and listen to what people say and give my little bit here and there, but I'm the quiet one in the room. But when I met Debbie and you, it was none of that, it was just the whole day and it was wonderful. It was so great. I felt so at ease with the both of you from the moment we met.

Speaker 2: 35:16

I'll say this, Jeremy One of the things that distinguished my relationship with Christine than any other relationship was simply because I was younger. She didn't feel like I couldn't teach her anything, Because one of the things that she and I I had to learn first, and then I shared it with Christine was neither one of us really understood or knew what love was. Neither one of us really understood or knew what love was we had an inkling.

Speaker 2: 35:41

But we never really understood what love was. And when we start redefining what love was, we start seeing the errors that we made with other people. But that wasn't enough. It had to be demonstrated in our relationship. You know. We had to understand that love can never hurt you, because it's always for your best interest.

Speaker 2: 36:03

Love is my contribution to her life to help her reach the best version of herself. There's an emotional element to it, but it's more a spiritual connection and a spiritual contribution to another person's life. These things, and then for me to show her these things, and then for her to come around the people who I love as family and they show her the same thing, is reinforcing this understanding that I am surrounded by love. I am surrounded by people who care about my routine. I'm surrounded by people that I can be safe around, because everything they do is always for my best interest. Why wouldn't I want to be a part of that or contribute into that? And that's another element that made our relationship so strong is we don't rely on simply the emotion of the other person. We look at more so the connection of our contribution into each other's life, because it's always for the other person's benefit.

Speaker 1: 36:55

I got to say sometimes, man, it's so shocking how similar we are man, because, as you started saying that, I was just highlighting the next question I was going to ask on my computer screen. And the question I was going to ask is has this experience changed the way you view love, relationships or life? And then, before I could even ask it, you already answered it. Definitely.

Speaker 2: 37:20

Well, Christine can answered it. Definitely Well, Christine can answer it?

Speaker 3: 37:22

Definitely no. I mean, to me it is just how can I say it? I never viewed any of those three love, relationships or life. I never viewed them in the way I see them now. To me, love was always this fluffy, romantic, movie-like kind of stuff, you know. And once it got normal, then I got bored and I kept thinking what am I doing wrong? There must be something else I'm missing. I'm not doing it right. Yeah, and that was basically the story of my life. Then the same with relationships, relationships.

Speaker 3: 38:10

I've never received this kind of understanding and commitment and when I look back, looking back also, I was pretty selfish myself at times and complicated. I didn't really understand what it takes and what I have to invest to have a healthy relationship. I always thought it all came by itself. No, it doesn't. You have to work damn hard for it and you know, this time around we have to work hard on what we've got every single day, and that makes it so, so, so precious and so enjoyable at the same time.

Speaker 3: 38:48

As for life, I think I've started to live much more in the moment, because our separations taught me just how vital and precious these moments we have together are, and that has made life so much more simple, because, in order to be happy with each other, we require nothing more than this relationship, this connection, and that was the biggest thing I learned. I don't need all the trimmings. You know, when I remember, back on the penthouse, I was going to send her, you know, a hundred dollar perfume and she brought flowers. She got flowers and I'm doing this and I'm doing that, and I was all just fluff. I didn't need any of that. What I have now, that outweighs all of that, so, so much.

Speaker 1: 39:44

Do you guys know that you have taught me something about love and relationships. What's that? Well, I remember talking to you before, warren, and this was maybe about a year ago, and you had mentioned to me a method you guys use for resolving conflicts or expressing certain things that have hurt you or offended you, and I was like, man, that's some profound shit right there, and so if you feel comfortable sharing that, man, I think everybody can learn something from that.

Speaker 3: 40:22

What I feel with us communication and laughter, understanding each other and being open and never ending the day in anger. We've never done that, you know. We always. We never put the phone down and go screw you. None of that. Never, any talk and never swear. And we always talk about it, no matter how painful or how hard it is.

Speaker 3: 40:44

And at first that was a struggle because I wasn't used to this honesty. You know, I'm telling you know how this is. Well, don't talk to me like that, that's not nice. Well, I don't care, you need to hear this, and vice versa. And then we established a certain saying Like Warren has this thing when I say something and he can feel I'm getting into my pissy mood, he says, no, we ain't doing that.

Speaker 3: 41:13

And you know what? Boom, it brings me right down and I'm back on track and we talk. Or when I start trying to get an argument with him, he has this same thing. He says, yeah, I ain't getting on that bus with you and yeah, it stops me straight away. And then one taught me something really, really important, and that's been, I think, one of the pillars. There are only three options available to us at all times we either wait for the other person to catch up with us if we don't understand each other. Or we go back for the other person, or we carry them until they're able to stand on their own again. Leaving the other person, or we carry them until they're able to stand on their own again, leaving the other person behind in their misery and their confusion or pain, is never, ever, an option, and that has been a great lifesaver for us.

Speaker 2: 42:10

I think those three things One of the biggest things that we had was my friendship with this woman named Tina, and Tina and I had been involved in a relationship before, but by the time you got to start grumbling I know it's a sore issue, let me just get through it when Christine and I was involved, tina and I was nothing more than friends, but Christine didn't believe that she was like. I always know that woman's trying to get back in. I'm like Christine. Tina owes you no fidelity. Only person is loyal to you or owe you any fidelity is me. But she kept saying well, I trust you, I just don't trust her. And I used to piss me off like very little.

Speaker 2: 42:56

But what I came to understand is and this is one of the things that helped me learn about Christine, or just anyone when Christine was upset with me at that time because maybe I was talking to Tina or something like that, she wasn't seeing war, she was seeing every other person who had betrayed her trust. That made her feel humiliated, that made her feel like there was a potential of her getting hurt and I had to help her see me again. But then I also had to understand this on my part Christine had a right to feel whatever she needed to feel, because I'm the one that caused her to feel it. I can never fault her or blame her for how she felt. Why would I? Something caused her to feel that, and normally it was my behavior or my action. So the only thing I would tell Christina I'd say listen, I will never fault you for how you feel. Just help me understand what I did or how you came to that feeling, because that's maybe what we can work at it on. But you're allowed to feel whatever you want to feel, because I had to realize I had to honor how she felt. I had to honor what she was thinking. Honor doesn't mean I have to agree with it, but respected enough to give it the space, because it wasn't created out of nothing. Something created that, something created that fear, something created that insecurity, something created that doubt. And if I know, something created, if she helped me understand how it is, then I can fix it or I can make sure I don't do it again, but I will never fault her for having it. Oh, you always hope to be doing this again. I would never do that to her, because now I'm not honoring the woman, I'm honoring what I feel that she should be thinking or doing because I didn't do what she said I did. So there's a lot of little things that she and I have added and built our relationship upon that keeps us solid.

Speaker 2: 44:44

Because if I tell you I love you, I can't just love you when things are going right. I can't just love you when I'm in a good mood. I can't just love you when I don't, when I like you. I got to love you too when I don't like you, but love is always. Are you born with speed? What needs to be done in the best interest of her, even when I'm upset, when I'm frustrated? Or will I be calling her all kind of bitches and stupid motherfuckers and all that other stuff? Like would I disrespect her? In that moment I can't possibly love you. Because how is that working to your benefit? How is that teaching that I love you? How is that teaching you? Teaching you that a person can to be empathetic towards you?

Speaker 4: 45:17

It can.

Speaker 2: 45:20

You're a very wise person.

Speaker 1: 45:22

Thank you.

Speaker 3: 45:27

It took me a while to understand that, because, you know, every time he called and said, oh, I spoke to Gina, I said, oh, not her again, for fuck's sake. And I was. And then he said, well, for fuck's sake, and I was. And then he said, well, she's my friend, you're not making me stop, nobody tells me what to do. And immediately I was up in arms. You know, yeah, you don't understand me. Well, you don't understand me either, and I always felt he was protecting her and attacking me, and it took me ages to understand that was not the case. That was just my fear, my insecurity. I was just always on the warpath. As soon as that name came up, my hair started curling up and I was ready for a fight. You know, it was horrible.

Speaker 2: 46:21

And that's why I had to understand.

Speaker 3: 46:23

The only thing that saved us was communication. Sorry, go on.

Speaker 2: 46:29

No, and that's what I say A lot of times when people are in that situation where you feel like you're on the right, you think that the only thing that needs to change is the other person, and I was never thinking that Christine was the only one. That needs to change is the other person, and I was never thinking that Christine was the only one that needed to change. And that's when I realized that it wasn't about. It wasn't that she didn't trust me, but I was doing things that mimicked or reflected other people who hurt her. So why wouldn't you respond that way? But again, we don't leave each other. That is something she and I do not do. We do not believe in it, we do not practice it, and if I have to sit on this phone for hours until she and I can get, I think only one time, once or twice, where I said you know what? We're not getting anywhere today, I'll just call you back tomorrow, but just hanging up the phone, we don't do that that is a no-no.

Speaker 3: 47:22

No, never.

Speaker 1: 47:24

That's deep, no. So I know that you guys mentioned that you've learned to live more in the moment, but I know from being in prison a lot of my thoughts have focused on the future. Do you guys do any type of future planning together?

Speaker 2: 47:46

Absolutely Egypt.

Speaker 3: 47:48

Absolutely, Absolutely. Don't tell them. Egypt is Always warrants answer to everything. Egypt, Well, I lived in Egypt for years and I lived in Kuwait, in the Middle East, and I loved it out there. And every time I used to tell Warren about Egypt oh, I would love to go there, oh, that sounds so great, oh, my God. And then I showed him pictures and I told him what it was like. And yeah, and then we decided one day why don't we go Once you're off papers? Why don't we go to Egypt? Yeah, let's.

Speaker 2: 48:30

And that was it, and I've still got friends out there, so you know go on and, jeremy, you know this is our five-year plan.

Speaker 2: 48:39

We plan on because I'm going to be on papers for five years. For five years we're going to work and we're going to save, and after five years then we're leaving the country and Egypt is our first destination. That's one of the things that Christine does is she sends me places that I never even thought of living before.

Speaker 2: 49:00

When I first met Christine, the idea of moving out of the country was like why would I ever leave America? What's outside of America? She's like there's a whole world out here. You didn't know that America was where the world is. And so she started introducing me to all these other places. And the more places I started seeing, the more I started saying I want to go there, I want to see those places. So, yeah, she opened my eyes to the possibility of something beyond what my mind was limited to. And so, yeah, after my 50 years up, and they give me my paper saying you know you are now formally off of all kind of supervision, you know you have your freedom, go live your life. That day after I get my passport, we're leaving the country. There's a lot of people who don't believe me and I keep trying to tell them.

Speaker 2: 49:49

you better appreciate me now, because when I'm gone, I'm gone, so they will see after five years what would that be? Baby 2032? 2032, I will be moving to Egypt.

Speaker 1: 50:03

I'm not mad at all because, you know, I went to Christine for some Egypt suggestions myself when we were planning that vacation, and I know also how people can kind of try to throw a damper on your plans, man especially you know in there, but it's because they live life through their own level of understanding and even out here, you know, people out here don't know everything. So by the time I got out and I was like, man, I'm, I'm trying to lead a country, people are like, oh, you can't get a passport. I'm like I already got a passport, you know so. And and I once I told people in prison that it blew everybody's mind and kind of had to break years of misinformation where they're like, oh, once you're a felon, you can't get a passport, once you're a felon, you can't do this. I'm like, bro, stop listening to that. Let me tell you something. You know. You told me I got off papers A year later we were supposed to go to Egypt.

Speaker 1: 51:07

Everybody know how that went. If you don't, you know, tap into that episode Unbeliezable. You know that was our trip to Belize instead of Egypt. But yeah, you know, people were amazed and they thought that it was me, like something amazing about me that allowed me to do this, and I'm like, no, you just got to stop listening to people talk and find the information for yourself, and so I try to give that information back to people in there like you, like Wise, and like other people that I know. Y'all going to spread the positive information of the possibilities and stop telling people what they can't do.

Speaker 2: 51:46

Do you remember what you told me that one time, when you and I were sitting in D2 and I was like man, I'm just going out there to survive. Man, Remember what you told me.

Speaker 1: 51:57

I said, man, I don't want to survive, I'm going out there to live.

Speaker 2: 52:00

I'm going out there to live and that has always stuck with me.

Speaker 2: 52:05

That idea of surviving is not worthy of my life. My life is worth more than just surviving. My life is worth more than just existing. And I connected with a woman that says my life is worth more than just surviving. My life is worth more than just existing. I want to live. I want to see the world, I want to still explore. I want to see the world, I want to still explore, I want to be still fascinated, I want to see the culture and I want to be in it. I don't want to just visit it in an Airbnb or a hotel. I want to be immersed. And she woke up a part of my spirit that I didn't even know was dormant.

Speaker 1: 52:41

Well, that's why I say I'm happy that you have her, because I understand through a lot of retrospection and introspection, that we grew up not only in prison but before prison. We grew up on survival. So to hear you say I'm just trying to go out there and survive, I didn't look down on you or anything for saying that because that was normal. I just so happened to have done a lot of thought about that at the time and was like man, I see a lot of people out here just surviving. People tell me all the phone on the time, all the time, all the phone. They're like oh man, I'm surviving, I'm out here doing this, I'm doing that the phone. They're like, oh man, you know I'm surviving, you know I'm out here doing this, I'm doing that, I'm surviving. But I'm like it's got to be more than survival out there.

Speaker 3: 53:27

I gotta find that, and once I find that, you know what is so sad about all of this, what's that just surviving? You know, why do people have so little trust in their own? You know in their own abilities, and you know there is so much to see out here in this world and we're just so happy, you know, to stay in the same spot our entire life and be around the same people our entire life, and we're missing out on so much. And to me that's something I could never understand, because you know we have the ability to conquer the world and we just don't do it. And that's terrible, I think.

Speaker 2: 54:23

We restrict ourselves all the time. Yeah, and so, Jeremy. One of the nicknames I give Christine is called Fugle Franny right, Because Christine will watch a penny like a hawk. I can't even believe you're bringing that up right now. I'm making a point, baby, I'm making a point, oh my God.

Speaker 2: 54:39

Point the reason why, the reason why the point is relevant is because Christine showed me that the life that we want to live is not that expensive to live it. I think that's one of the misconceptions a lot of people have is that in order to live that life is going to take a lot of money. She starts showing me listen, if we save this amount of money, if we do this, we can live relatively comfortably in this country because the US dollar is so much greater over there. Or we can live this well in the country because we're going to be living in a certain type of way that's not going to require all the kind of money that people think it is. She showed me that any single thing that we wanted to do, if we work to do it, we can accomplish it.

Speaker 2: 55:24

And again, having that kind of person every single day, whispering a truth greater than the lies that you've been telling in your head and to your soul. It starts making you believe that I can accomplish anything with this person, and that's what I tell her. I say listen, as long as it's you and the Father, me and you, good. If anyone else decides to help us, great, but as long as we have me, you and the Heavenly Father, then I'm not concerned about anything else.

Speaker 1: 55:57

Sounds like that. That's great. I know that you guys come from two vastly different backgrounds and I remember the moment. I remember a lot of moments, but I remember the moment when I decided, man, I don't want to be with anybody. That's from where I'm from, you know, and you know.

Speaker 1: 56:20

Of course, at first I tried to come home and make it work locally and I was like so me and Debbie met online and she was from a small town I never heard of and, of course, I was from, you know, living in Akron, which is another small town, and if you heard of it it's probably because of LeBron James. And so we was like man, how about we both move to Columbus? I had wanted to, she had wanted to. So we was like man, how about we both move to Columbus? I had wanted to, she had wanted to. So we're like let's do it.

Speaker 1: 56:47

You know, right, but by us coming together with such vast background differences, all of a sudden it opened each mind up to thinking differently, outside of what we had normally thought. So her thought processes alone, I thought, was amazing. I'm like damn, you think like that've done what right? Hers was like no, you, you've done this and you think like that. But when we got together all of a sudden, now we have this third unexplored area of thinking and we have all these first time experiences together and it's amazing.

Speaker 1: 57:23

I don't think I would have any of these experiences had it been, had it not been for me getting out of that area where I was, you know that, that pond that I was normally living in, yeah, you know. And so now I have all these experiences that I am set an example for other people, and people are amazed Can't imagine that that would be my existence right now if it wasn't for me getting out of that small pond, even if I was the biggest thinker in that pond, you know, yeah, yeah, I've lived in Hawaii and I've lived in Florida and I've lived in Kentucky and I've lived all these places, but I've always found myself in a similar situation in each of those places. So, yeah, I got the experience of going there, but once I met Debbie, it was like we can live in the same place. But now our minds have come together to where we don't think anything like what's going on around us.

Speaker 2: 58:24

Everything becomes possible.

Speaker 1: 58:26

We had to battle so many naysayers and I know that's what you guys are going through so many non-believers, so many, you know. So much skepticism, so many people just like, bro, that's not going to work. I know what you're thinking. That sounds crazy. No, I'm just pushing you. Just got to be like hey, listen, I ain't ask for your opinion. You know just like. Hey, I ain't ask for your opinion, just sit back and watch me work. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 58:58

Well, listen, I have to go oh yeah, I love you baby.

Speaker 3: 59:01

I'll talk to you later, I will.

Speaker 1: 59:03

Brother, I love you baby, I will Brother, I love you.

Speaker 2: 59:05

I love you too, Okay, and I'll talk to you later okay.

Speaker 1: 59:07

All right, man Love you too, bro Later.

Speaker 4: 59:20

The Lockdown to Legacy podcast is proud to be a part of the Buzzsprout Podcast Community Network. Audio engineering is done by our very own Remy Jones. You can reach out to us with any feedback, questions, comments or share the love by emailing stories at lockdown2legacycom Stories at lockdown2legacycom. You can reach out there too, too, for a free sticker, and you can find us on Instagram and Twitter with the handle at Lockdown to Legacy and on Facebook at the Lockdown to Legacy podcast. Please don't forget to rate, review and subscribe. Thanks for listening.