Season 2: Welcome Back!!!

We share the emotional rollercoaster of selling our house, navigating family loss, and discovering our forever home while emphasizing the importance of legacy and community support. The journey highlights resilience in the face of challenges while building a future for our children. 
• Transitioning from city life to a rural community 
• The unexpected death that reshaped our priorities 
• Struggles with selling our home amidst market challenges 
• Discovering a new opportunity at a farmer's market 
• Settling into a home that fosters family and legacy 
• Emphasizing the value of support systems during tough times 
• Looking forward to new goals and furthering the podcast mission

Chapters

• 0:15 Moving, Selling, and Starting Over
• 11:12 Finding the Perfect Home
• 22:08 Roots and Reflection
• 38:48 Future Plans and Achievements
• 45:47 Evolution of Lockdown to Legacy Podcast
• 58:12 Friendships, Visiting Prisons, Future Goals

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:15

Hey everybody, welcome back to season two of Lockdown to Legacy. I'm your host, Remy Jones, and from time to time I will be joined by my co-host, dj, who just so happens to also be my awesome sauce wife. I also have a couple of close friends that are still incarcerated who will be regular contributors, and together we will bring you the real on dealing with the criminal justice system from multiple angles. A lot of what we share will be real experiences from both currently and formerly incarcerated people like myself, along with current events that affect those impacted by the legal system. So thank you for tapping in, thank you for sticking with us from season one. Now let's get to it. Hey everybody, welcome back to season two of the Lockdown to Legacy podcast. I am your host, remy Jones.

Speaker 2: 1:13

And I am your co-host, Debbie Jones.

Speaker 1: 1:21

And together we're about to bring you the real on this prison stuff now. Um, you know we try to cover the 360, uh, incarceration experience or even just the legal um, criminal justice system experience. But don't worry, I'll edit that out Anyway, uh, I'm excited to be back. How about you?

Speaker 2: 1:42

Yeah, it's good to be back.

Speaker 1: 1:44

Yeah, yeah, you guys know we did some half-assed announcements saying that we were going to go on hiatus and we thought it was going to be brief, just to be real. But you know, life got to lifin' so I guess first we could tell that story about how a brief hiatus turned into what six months. Yeah, that was aggressive. So I guess, to start, I mean, we can just jump right in. Sure, we were going to move to DC, I believe we not to DC, to Maryland, to be close to DC. We're going to move to DC, I believe we not to DC, to Maryland, to be close to DC. I believe we told you guys about that and the experience of going house hunting and everything down there. Well, you know, unfortunately Uncle Bob died and that kind of put things in a new perspective, you know, a reframe for us, and so we decided we wanted to be closer to home.

Speaker 2: 2:43

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:43

And by home we meant moving out to the boonies, away from Columbus, to be closer to family.

Speaker 2: 2:49

Ohio.

Speaker 1: 2:49

Ohio, yeah, yeah. And so, you know, we kind of kicked around the idea and then all of a sudden we were like let's do it. Like it literally was like let's do it. And then three days later we were trying to get our house ready to be listed.

Speaker 2: 3:07

Right.

Speaker 1: 3:08

So poor planning on us. We can't be mad about how it played out from there, but it all turned out for the best, yeah. And so we're going to kind of cover and chronicle the adventures that ensued after that in this episode. So, first up, we tried to get the house ready to sell.

Speaker 2: 3:28

Right, and that was in June.

Speaker 1: 3:29

That was in June and I'm talking about big heavy lifts. I had a lot of open-ended house projects. We had great, great support from the family. People came over and was helping me build a fire pit, my father-in-law was helping me build a front porch, all these things. And then the realtor came and was like hey, we're going to want to list even sooner than you guys thought.

Speaker 2: 3:55

Right Ahead of the July 4th holiday.

Speaker 1: 3:58

Yeah, and they were like nah nah X, that we want to get it on as soon as possible because the school year is coming up.

Speaker 2: 4:04

Right.

Speaker 1: 4:05

So we were like oh X, that we want to get it on as soon as possible because the school year is coming up, right? So we were like, oh crap. Next thing, you know, we were halfway through building a front porch on our house and we had to dig up all the posts and put, mulch down, make it look like it never happened. It was pretty, pretty intense. We resurfaced our driveway, we were painting inside, we were, yeah, everything really. I mean I burned through some uh vacation time at work.

Speaker 2: 4:35

I was just going to say it took a lot of significant time off to just to um be there on days you couldn't, and a lot of things to get it ready and get it on the market. But then, in addition to that, we had to make a big ask.

Speaker 1: 4:55

So shout out to my parents for letting us live with them for what we thought was going to just be for the viewings and ended up being like four months, right, right, and you know that kind of has, like it's like stigma, like oh, you got to move back in with the in-laws or with the parents and stuff. So big shout out to them because living with them, especially being, as it was, unplanned to live with them that long, it really turned out to be a great experience yeah.

Speaker 2: 5:20

I mean they took on their four grandkids in a full-time capacity and the two of us. So I mean, for two retirees it was a big life change and they were very selfless in that process. So we thought we would just have showings for a week, a weekend. That's what the market and our realtors told us and we thought to believe and that's not the reality of what happened. And by the time our house finally got into contract which I'm sure you'll talk about it was time for school to start and we didn't want our kids to start school and then have to change schools a month and a half in to the school year. So we decided it was best for us to continue to stay with my mom and dad while our house transition fully took place. It was a lot. I don't know where you want to go from there.

Speaker 1: 6:18

I mean there's so many ways to go from there Right.

Speaker 1: 6:22

I guess, to start, we'll start with the selling process. As I mentioned before, we had reached out to the people who helped us buy the house. We had a good experience. So we were like, hey, let's reach out to them. We kept in contact. This should be easy. Then we also had a buying agent up here where we currently live to help us find a new house. So two realtors and then we had them communicating with each other so that everybody was on the same page and everybody on board. Plus, we shopped some other realtors. Everybody was like, man, this house is awesome, it's going to sell within like four to seven days. So we were like, oh, it's going to sell within like four to seven days. So we were like, oh, it's going to be a cakewalk, we're going to be, you know.

Speaker 1: 7:09

And then up here the real estate market moves a little slower. So we were anticipating that we would just have our way with a choice of house. And then came the hiccups. So the first hiccup was, within like a day or two of us listing our house for sale, going live on the market, the feds made an announcement that they were potentially going to lower interest rates In the fall. Right? So in the fall, you would think that that would not affect us at all. But what happened was our anticipation of selling within a week turned into a selling after 52 days. Right, we had a like what the hell? Moment with our realtors. So if they are listening, please forgive my tone, but I was like dude, what the heck? What's our game plan? Why isn't this house selling? Everybody that came to see the house said the same thing oh, this is the best house we've seen, out of all the ones we've seen.

Speaker 2: 8:20

So far Everybody loved it.

Speaker 1: 8:21

But we're not going to make an offer. What? Why the fuck did you even come? Excuse my language, sorry. Um, people were like, hey, we don't, we don't know if we want a split level. You know, that was a big excuse and my thing was it says it's a split level in the in the ad, um. But you know, for whatever reason, um, in the first 30 days we had like nine viewings showings, um, which was pretty low. That's pretty low, um, and hence why, you know, we can't just move back in because it's not selling, so we have to keep the show ready back in because it's not selling, so we have to keep the show ready. So now we're living with my in-laws for a month, for two months, and that turned out to be a four and a half month ordeal.

Speaker 2: 9:15

Well, finally the house went into contract.

Speaker 1: 9:17

It did. We had to discount it, which broke my heart. I'm always the money conscious person and I was like I want to drive a hard bargain. But you know, we just had to relent and in the end we're happy with it.

Speaker 2: 9:35

Yeah, I think what, without having to get into all of the details of all of the things um, we had made an offer on a house that we really liked and the contingency was we had to be within contract within a specific number of days, and we just couldn't meet that.

Speaker 1: 9:52

Oh no, that's one detail we got to say. They said we had to be in contract, our house had to be sold within 10 days.

Speaker 2: 10:02

We thought, eh, 10 days, no problem, it didn't work out. Like Remy said, we were on the market for 52 days. Yeah, we thought 10 days, no problem, it didn't work out. Like Remy said, we were on the market for 52 days, so it just it didn't work. And but I think the silver lining of that is, in retrospect, we want out bigger in the house we currently are in. Do you want me to talk about that a little bit in that process?

Speaker 1: 10:26

Well, sure, I mean, there is the other house, though, which I thought was amazing, she's downplaying it. I thought at the time that there was no way we were going to find a better house for that.

Speaker 2: 10:38

Yeah, I was not as in love with it as my husband was, but-.

Speaker 1: 10:42

But she put it on a good front and made me feel like she was all in.

Speaker 2: 10:46

I wasn't for you. It seemed to check all of the boxes for you. Um well, I mean, it was, it was good it just it didn't check all of the boxes for me. I imagined, if we were moving up here, that our yard was going to be bigger. Uh, it was going to be more, like my childhood experience, and so that house was still in a neighborhood and so we still had pretty close neighbors, things like that. So it was, the house was great. I didn't.

Speaker 1: 11:13

I wasn't in love with the land, which you knew, so yeah, so the land was an acre and a quarter, I don't remember. So I mean, that's, that's a come up from our quarter acre lot at our last house, which was great for me, I don't remember, but mainly for me, it was the fact that the house had been completely redone. It was beautiful, central fireplace, you know, stone, all this stuff, and it set up on a big hill. And what I had found out was that this house used to belong to the head prosecutor of the county, I think I was told. And so, you know, I didn't even go in front, man, I was ego tripping, I'm like, oh, look at me with all these felonies about to move in a prosecutor's house. So I probably was willing to overreach for that alone. But you know, you never hear me talk about God.

Speaker 1: 12:25

But something was looking out for us. The universe had other things lined up for us, you know, and so it fell through. Our 10 days expired and we were like, hey, sorry, guys, we need an extension. And they said, well, we asked for like 10 days or 11 days, I think so, yeah, and they were like, no, you can have, you know, we want it business days. They were like, no, you got straight seven days and we were like I don't know if that's going to work and we don't want to waste your time, so you know we'll walk. And like the next day, our realtor was like like yo, they reached out to us overnight and they were like no, no, we want to make this work yeah we'll give you five thousand dollars if you come through.

Speaker 1: 13:11

And we were like I got excited because I like to negotiate. I was like I knew we should have leaned on him and gave him the squeeze, but we we turned him down.

Speaker 2: 13:24

Yeah, cause at that point it was too much stress. Right, like I was, I as a person with an anxiety disorder I was over it. It wasn't a house I loved. I wasn't willing to continue to draw out something that I felt was inevitable, which was that it wasn't going to come together, and so the stress of that was really difficult for me, particularly because you're not allowed to answer your phone during the day.

Speaker 1: 13:48

Yeah, so I did leave the bulk of this whole experience on you.

Speaker 2: 13:52

I had to field the calls with the banks and the realtors and the back and forth. My phone ringing caused me anxiety because I didn't know who it was going to be and what I was going to have to figure out, because I couldn't get a hold of you to do it. I just had to make all these games. It was a really difficult time for me, yeah.

Speaker 1: 14:14

And the bank side of it was a whole other ordeal that we probably won't get into. We're not going to get into it, but just know that it was petty and nonsensical. It was a lot. It was a lot.

Speaker 2: 14:27

Getting approved. If you've gotten approved for a house loan in recent years, it's kind of like going to the B&B now where you've got to bring your soul in a jar to get your driver's license renewed. That's how getting a loan feels, regardless of your incomes. It's very invasive. I think is a good word for it.

Speaker 1: 14:49

I mean, it's demeaning too. That's how it felt for me, because the one thing I will say on the subject is that we have multiple streams of income and it's all documented W-2s. Whatever was needed, we had it. And they were like no, we can't use these. We have no good reason why we can't. We're just going to use your main job. And then they were like, after excluding all of this income, we're going to say you're 1% over on the debt to income ratio. And we're like no, we're not. And then they then they were even like well, if you could pay this and this off, so we sold our motorcycles, which was sad, and, um, you know, we paid some other stuff off. And then they were like well, where's this money coming from that you're paying this stuff off with?

Speaker 2: 15:36

and we're like that income you wouldn't include so it was literally with money you told me doesn't count. So I don't know what you like, because then we had to prove how we paid it off and I was like here's my paycheck and here's where I paid it off from this other job that you said doesn't count so, even selling the motorcycles, we sold the motorcycles.

Speaker 1: 15:59

Like when I sold mine, the guy met me at the bank. We walked in, paid the people and got the lien release and all that, and they were like, well, this money didn't come from one of your accounts, you have to prove where it came from. And I'm like I just told you, but anyway, that was that. But the house fell through and I thought it was the end of the world because I was like, man, we're not going to find another house like that. I really wanted it. It did not check off all the things. Like you said, I was real big on having like a man space, but it was a ranch, it was immaculately done, it had more land, it had a three-car garage. We were like, ah, this is great. But you know, hey, I was willing to concede certain stuff in order to have that. It fell through and while I was moping, the most immaculate thing, the most amazing thing, happened to you.

Speaker 2: 17:03

I went to the farmer's market is what happened?

Speaker 1: 17:06

Yeah, farmer's market saved our lives.

Speaker 2: 17:10

I was actually at the library in our tiny town here and I was working on my dissertation, which is another topic. But I was tired, I was ready to take a break and I was like, oh, it's Saturday, farmer's market's happening. I should stop by see if there's anybody I know still working at the farmer's market. We really love like fresh produce, we love local, supporting local, those types of things. I was like I'm going to check in at the farmer's market and a family friend was there who I had recently seen at the 4th of July parade here in our town and I had told him that we were looking at moving back.

Speaker 2: 17:51

So I saw him again at the farmer's market and he said, hey, you still thinking of moving back here? And I said, yeah, we just had this house fall through or trying, but we can't get our house to sell, we can't get our uh, you know, the house, a house up here we're we're kind of in a pickle. And he said to me well, I've actually been looking at downsizing. Would you like to come and check out my house? And I jokingly said back to him like well, I got a lot of kids. Is it going to fit my kids? And he was like yes, it absolutely will. So very next day, you and I came over to see it and as of now, we are sitting in the master bedroom of that house recording this podcast.

Speaker 1: 18:24

Yeah, and just as a quick summary of what this house is, we talked about how I wanted a man space and of course, we need a space for our kids and we want it land. So what is this? A log cabin with a bunch of land.

Speaker 2: 18:45

In a log cabin.

Speaker 1: 18:46

And a workshop.

Speaker 2: 18:47

Yeah, a big workshop, that is all yours.

Speaker 1: 18:50

All mine. You hear that it's on record now.

Speaker 2: 18:53

I said it on a recorded line, it was just a handshake deal before, but now it's on record. Yeah, I don't just do podcast count as official.

Speaker 1: 19:00

It counts.

Speaker 2: 19:01

Records.

Speaker 2: 19:06

I got a million fans, at least in my mind and they're all going to show up to court to testify. Yeah, this house for me is a legacy, right. Like this is a house that we can pass on to our kids. It has extra spaces that were previously used. Like there's a space above the two-car garage. Like that whole two car detached garage used to be an apartment while they were building the house itself, and so it was important to you and I to have somewhere for our parents in case they needed a space. So we wanted like an in-law suite, just in case we needed to have our parents on site to help take care of them, and it kind of checks off that box, which was really big to us both.

Speaker 2: 19:51

We have a lot of land for our kids to grow and explore, and you've got a space and it really worked out in a way that was unforeseen, couldn't have even dreamed of it, and because it was a family friend working with us, they didn't care when our house sold, so it immediately took the pressure off of like well, you have to be in contract by this date, because they were just like eh, let us know, we'll start looking around and making some plans and we'll take this casually and we continue to have a really great relationship now. We hang out, we check in with each other. Pretty frequently you call to just say the things that look cool.

Speaker 1: 20:41

Yeah, I go out in that workshop and I'm like man, this is amazing. And the thing is that I often minimalize how far I've come after prison.

Speaker 2: 20:54

Yes.

Speaker 1: 20:56

And so, as you see, debbie, we'll, we'll attest to it. So I've had a pretty good run compared to, I guess, what the statistics say about, you know, recidivism and stuff and job placement and stuff like that, and I've done my best to help others and somehow I still because I had this grand book of goals and you know, a lot of them kind of just got distracted with new goals and stuff. So I kind of felt like man, I really ain't done much, you know. I mean I went to college. That was a big accomplishment.

Speaker 1: 21:34

Then I dropped out of college and you know, I kind of was hard on myself about that. But it wasn't until we moved into this house that I really felt like man, like okay, we're doing something here. And, of course, debbie's, like I'm proud of you because you did this and I'm like, nah, because you know I believe I would have accomplished a lot, but I believe I would not have accomplished this without you. So this is an us achievement and it, you know, is both of our goals to do this. But you mentioned that this in itself is a legacy thing.

Speaker 2: 22:12

It is.

Speaker 1: 22:13

And that is what I really started to see, like making plans to turn the garage, the two car detached, into an apartment for parents, for retirement and stuff. You know, like, okay, like this isn't just a me goal, like this is really impacting other people's lives in major ways, um, to see what it's done for our kids already and we've only been in this house a few months it's like, you know, it's amazing. And so now I'm starting to see, like, um, so these goals didn't happen, but this is something that's not a drop in the bucket, it's not something to be sneezed at and disregarded, you know, um, so I really feel, like, you know, as I approach my seventh year out, that's right, um, you know, coming up in March, like this is huge. What, oh yeah, it is May, look at that Been out so long I don't even remember. I can still tell you my prison number, though. But give it another few years, it'll be good, all right, but anyway, this house, it's a journey.

Speaker 1: 23:36

We moved in and it wasn't like the move-in show house. I mean, we had some projects on the books, yeah. But at first I thought, man, it needs some work, it needs some work, it needs some work. And now, as you know, like I said, we've been here a few months and I've gotten a few projects under my belt. We just plowed our driveway, which is ridiculously long now, for the first time, and it was an experience, yeah, but it's like creating instant memories. You know like everything, every project we do, every you know thing we do outside.

Speaker 1: 24:13

It's like an experience and it's really like putting our stamp on this place yeah you know, it's not just like, oh, we moved in the house and now we lived here. It's like, oh, we moved in this house and we're making it ours, beyond just simple decorations and stuff that we put in it.

Speaker 2: 24:30

Yeah, and this forever home that we now have is when so many folks our age are still trying to buy their first house, is we very much acknowledge where that is for us but hopefully stands as a testament as to what is possible, even you know, in spite of things like felonies and a 10-year prison record, even in spite of significant student loan debt. I'm looking at myself, not at you, and now I think people are like, oh no, I've got too much in student loans, I can't afford to buy a house, which is, yeah, I get it. I do have significant student loan debt because of a system that is broken, um, regarding how we counsel students in terms of taking on college experiences.

Speaker 1: 25:30

And credit card debt let's not forget that and credit card debt, All kinds of things right Because they're quick to give you a student credit card.

Speaker 2: 25:37

Listen, that's another podcast.

Speaker 1: 25:40

That's somebody else's, but we'd love to be guests, right.

Speaker 2: 25:44

If you have that space, write to stories at lockdowntolegacycom and we will get in touch. But all of that to say we're really happy. We got our keys in the middle of November, had a really great move-in experience, hired the same folks who helped move us out. We have we tirelessly cleaned and getting the space ready. We've been working on some projects, some small things, getting ourselves ready for the spring and the bigger things we need to tackle.

Speaker 2: 26:12

But the thought that this is it for us in terms of a house, right, and knowing that, whatever happens, this gets Ivan's already claimed it right no matter what happens to us, our children get to make the decisions as to what happens with this space next is a I don't know. It's a feeling of pride that I didn't think that I was going to feel. Um, so it's a very different experience than moving to the Maryland metropolis. It's a very different, uh experience than the things we thought it was going to be, which was buying a bigger house in the Columbus area, going to Maryland. None of our original dreams necessarily revolved around being out in a slower pace of life, but I don't have any regrets. How about you?

Speaker 1: 27:08

No, not at all. Um, I you know, as we talk about legacies, I think it's great Um, how our kids love this house. Um, like our, our youngest, raylan. She named the house. Um, you just heard our six-year-old son has claimed the house, you know so, when actually he said he's never moving out. So not only has he claimed it, he's like you know, just to solidify that I'm not leaving.

Speaker 2: 27:43

Well, and his statement to us was when he told us that he was going to keep the house. He was like I was like, oh, you want to live here. And he was like, well, somebody has to take care of grandma and grandpa. And when he means grandma and grandpa, he means my grandma and grandpa, so his great-grandparents. So he's acknowledging that we will have passed on. He's acknowledging that his grandparents will pass on, but don't worry, great-grandma and grandpa will still be around the corner and need somebody to take care of them. It made me laugh so much.

Speaker 1: 28:15

Yeah, and in addition, I got bonus kids and to have them, we did Christmas all together this year and that was a great experience to have everyone here and like the look on their faces when they seen it for the first time, not including the little barn out front that needs torn down. But once we got past that and they saw it open up and they're like wow, like this is the house. Well, they didn't even realize. Like all the land was ours, so we had to explain to that. You know, we went on an ATV tour around the property and they're like oh my gosh, and that's really cool to change the perspectives of the kids and what is possible.

Speaker 1: 29:02

Like for the majority of their lives they lived in small houses or apartments. So I always talk to my kids about my goals and try to explain along the way so that they don't think it happened overnight and it was easy, Like this is a labor of love, you know, and it's all yours one day. You know, you and your siblings, so that was really cool and to see how they grow in the space. You know, at first they just saw oh, I get my own room, you know. Or uh, oh, look how big my room is, or you know, oh look, I have space for my cars and tracks and you know stuff.

Speaker 1: 29:43

But it seems like every day something else comes up where they're like oh okay, you know, it's small stuff and it really matters to me too. But like building a fire in our wood-burning stove like the first time I did that I was like shit, fucking cowboy out here. You know I'm uh yeah, I'm right around, I'm walking around in my work, cowboy boots and stuff. I'm just feeling myself, but it's like that's not something we would have done in West Columbus. So for me that's kind of a big deal, Collecting firewood and just everything is pretty cool.

Speaker 2: 30:26

Tell me about how the? Uh, cause you've mostly lived in big cities, too, your whole life, so this is a different. I mean, this is a normal to me. This is how I grew up, but, um, this is new ish to you in terms of the lifestyle. Uh, tell me about it. Yeah, I mean. So I've experienced this type of living new-ish to you in terms of the lifestyle. Tell me about it.

Speaker 1: 30:47

Yeah, I mean so I've experienced this type of living, but mostly just visiting, like my grandfather living in a tiny town down in Florida, and you know everybody's got land and stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 31:00

So it was kind of cool experiencing that as a kid. But you're right, for the most part I've lived in the neighborhood or in the hood, you know, um, pretty pretty close knit in different ways. Like living out here is very close knit, everybody knows everybody and everybody's supportive of everybody for the most part. But there's a proximity factor that's not really like our neighbor. Yeah, they're not like a mile down the road, but I can't look in their window, I can't see their front door, so it's kind of like out of sight, out of mind, like I feel like I don't have neighbors, Right? Um, but the fact that we we thought we weren't gonna like it or that we would have to take more time adjusting because we can't just run around the corner real quick to the store or to some trendy restaurant or high end dining, or you know, we went to OSU games, we went to Columbus Crew games. That's not down the street anymore.

Speaker 2: 32:10

Yeah, takes some planning now.

Speaker 1: 32:11

Right, I mean even the grocery store, stuff like that. You know, now it's like we got to go in town, we got to make a trip into town. Do you need anything? You know, and you particularly were worried about me and how I would take adjusting to that and I'm like shut up, I'm like I don't got no issues. You know, the commute has been OK. I got a. I got a 55 minute commute. Now I used to have a seven minute commute.

Speaker 2: 32:39

Right.

Speaker 1: 32:41

That is a little different and my energy levels had to adjust. You know getting up an hour earlier, you know to go, then do a 12-hour shift and drive back an hour. But for the most part, man, I like it. I like the smaller town vibe, less traffic, less. You know, nobody's really in a hurry here, so you don't have the people like cutting you off, almost causing an accident and then flicking you off like it was your fault. You know I like it. And we still have Walmart. We still got Kroger.

Speaker 2: 33:16

Everybody's got a Walmart, don't they? No, they don't.

Speaker 1: 33:19

But if you do have a Walmart, you know that you're in the club, you're big deal. But yeah, I like it out here. Man, I think that the commute, which I originally thought was going to be a bad thing, has actually been a good thing Because as I am leaving, the busyness of Columbus, where we lived before, has expanded exponentially. They built what five, six housing and apartment developments along two streets. On either side of our house there's six apartment and housing developments coming up. So the amount of traffic and just busyness you know to then like leave that and just the further out I get, the closer to home I get it's like it all disappears, right, and I'm on those two lane country roads by the time I'm back home and it's like mentally it's awesome, it's a great decompression and you know I can put myself in like home mode, you know which is pretty cool.

Speaker 1: 34:29

What about you?

Speaker 2: 34:31

uh, it's. It's an interesting thing because it's not new to me. It's like being back yeah, it's like how is it like to be back, everybody's like, is it you're? The and so it's uh, it's an interesting piece because, quite honestly, I couldn't wait to get away from here.

Speaker 1: 34:53

I worried about that coming by.

Speaker 2: 34:54

Yeah, I think what is helpful, though, is what I have learned about myself in the time away and in living somewhere differently, is that I now know how to put up appropriate boundaries and I know how to filter opinions, and what I mean by that is, I think, that, though the ideologies that may exist here are different than my own, I have a good barometer, a little bit, of being able to just kind of filter that, because people's thoughts and opinions are just that their thoughts and opinions. They're not their whole selves, and I think, in being away and in being at school and being in jobs and living in Columbus, I have I mean, there are people in Columbus I don't agree with either, right, so it's-.

Speaker 1: 35:54

It's kind of like that agree to disagree. Yeah, a little bit. Because I think I would imagine that living out here without experiencing anything outside of here gives you a pressure to kind of go along with it.

Speaker 2: 36:07

Well, and you don't know how to like, you don't know how to counter those things in a way that feels appropriate. I think I, as a person, have grown a lot in my time away and so it's given me better skills to facilitate difficult conversations. Or and it's not that I I mean I feel like I'm making it sound like every conversation I have here is bad or that every person that lives here I disagree with. That's not necessarily the case, but, like when you've not lived anywhere else or experienced anything differently, um, I think your perspective is a little bit limited. But by me moving away and having a lot of personal growth and professional growth and all of these other things, coming back doesn't necessarily feel like I'm coming back the same way.

Speaker 2: 36:56

I'm coming back with a lot of different perspectives. My truths are different, my opinions have changed right, because I've been confronted with some new information, right. So I feel good about being here. I still get to do things that I enjoy and spaces that I enjoy, and I'm finding ways to do so intentionally. So I really have liked being back to be closer to family. That was really important to me, particularly after our loss the beginning of last year, which just happened. The anniversary of that death just happened, which just happened, the anniversary of that death just happened. And that was like I think I said in that episode, that was the first death my family has experienced in like 30 years, so that was really hard for us. So now that we are here, I feel like we are able to help out differently, help out more, and my family is really close, like they're together all the time. They're together right now while we're recording.

Speaker 1: 38:00

Yeah, we kind of skipped out on Sunday lunch.

Speaker 2: 38:03

Yeah, apologies, grandma.

Speaker 1: 38:05

Apologies, cause they just might be listening to this though, sorry.

Speaker 2: 38:10

So those are the things that I feel like I missed and those are truthfully the things that I feel like I missed and those are truthfully the things that I felt like the kids were missing out on um because we weren't close to your family or my family and being in columbus I mean we weren't far, but we were far enough that it made that community really hard to foster so especially um trying to bring both sides together and a place where nobody's like, nobody's close to here.

Speaker 1: 38:38

So they were all traveling. You know, an hour, two hours away, to come meet us in Columbus.

Speaker 2: 38:45

Yeah, so that got tricky to try to do those things. So, um, I'm glad I'm. I'm grateful for the change of pace, I'm grateful to continue to keep the community in the spaces that I need it and, um, being back's been fine for me, I'm glad to be here. I love our house. So I tell you that all the time I love it every time something new happens in the house.

Speaker 2: 39:06

I'm like man, I love our house, so I, by chance, at a farmer's market we found the house we were gonna buy and it wasn't on the market and we were able to kind of facilitate that.

Speaker 1: 39:18

To be honest, even if this house was on the market, we wouldn't have looked at it. It didn't fall into even though it's what we were looking for in terms of potential. It didn't fall into what we were looking for as far as finished product at the moment. At that time and it also we felt it was probably out of our budget and I don't know just there were a ton of reasons why we figured like no, we can't buy this. But for the fact that it was somebody we knew. I mean, like you said, it wasn't on the market.

Speaker 1: 39:56

We didn't have to rush the process. They needed their own time to find their own place to go and move. Nothing was packed on their end. It was really impromptu for them too, and so it was kind of like, hey, while you're doing us this solid, we're doing you this solid. It worked out for everybody, and the fact that we knew them made it so much easier, like I don't have to call their realtor and their realtor give them a message and then they get back to them and get back to us you know we would meet in person.

Speaker 1: 40:27

It's like, hey, I'll call them up real quick.

Speaker 2: 40:29

You want to stop over and we can talk about this, or you don't want to touch base on it. It was just a really easy process and I think that they reciprocally feel that love, so it was good all the way around.

Speaker 1: 40:42

It's like an additional part of the family now.

Speaker 2: 40:45

Right. It worked out for both of us and provided them exactly what they needed to, so we were glad that it wrapped out that way for the end of 2024.

Speaker 1: 40:55

Yeah, so, now that it's 2025, what are?

Speaker 2: 40:59

you looking forward to? Oh my gosh, I graduate this year. Yeah, I'm done. So that's what I'm looking forward to.

Speaker 1: 41:07

I'm feeling very done. You've been with this one for how long I don't know, you mentioned going back to school again, maybe.

Speaker 2: 41:21

Listen, I don't know. I never know. So that's what I'm most looking forward to. I'm sure 2025 is going to bring us a lot of really cool things, but I will be done with this doctorate degree in May I graduate, so I'm really looking forward to closing that chapter. I'm excited for you. I'm proud of you, thanks. I'm proud of the research I've been able to do in this dissertation that I've been able to write. It's near and dear to me, so I'm glad to finally close the book, I guess, on that and get to experience the reward that I've been chasing for years. This is the end of my fourth year, so it's kind of hard to believe that that's all gone so quickly because it didn't feel quick.

Speaker 1: 42:03

It's like doing time. It looks like it's a lot when you look back. I mean, it looks like a lot when you're looking forward.

Speaker 2: 42:12

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 42:13

But at some point you're like man.

Speaker 2: 42:14

That kind of went fast. Yeah, a couple big hurdles left to seal the deal and be done, but I'm really looking forward to the end. But I'm proud of the process and what it's taken to get here and the sacrifice on all of our parts.

Speaker 1: 42:32

So after this, then what?

Speaker 2: 42:34

Oh, who knows, I can't even see too far ahead of me right now. Like I'm so in it right now to check these boxes that I can't even see. Like I can't see anything even in the second half of the year, let alone the what comes next for me. How about you?

Speaker 1: 42:52

Well, you know, I finally got settled in to, you know, fuel hauling, right, and I feel like that's something I'm going to be at for the foreseeable future. I really I mean, it's a job that made me kind of give up on thinking about other jobs. That's big.

Speaker 2: 43:10

That is big.

Speaker 1: 43:11

That's big, a lot of people can say that I don't think Right, I mean, I like it. They're very supportive and the job is, it's not very challenging, but there's always something new coming along new accounts, new this, new that, and it's rewarding. So I like that. So I've decided for 2025, since you're graduating, no more school, I'm going to take all that time that you've been taking and I'm going to invest more in the podcast, because this is my baby, right, my baby been with the babysitter. I ain't been giving her no love. No, it's cool.

Speaker 1: 43:52

But you know, I have been um, kind of thinking up some new ideas for the podcast and the business as a whole. Um, and I'm going to try to develop that for 2025 and beyond. Um, I bought some new equipment, which is cool. So I got a soundboard. Uh, that will make things a whole lot better when it comes to recording over the phone interviews, because a little behind the scenes peak, I was recording phone calls on my phone and I would just put a microphone up next to my phone on speakerphone.

Speaker 1: 44:29

Turned out all right, you know. But now with the soundboard, I can, you know, hook it to Bluetooth and everything should go smoother. Also, we can include other people in on that, since I don't have to take up an additional microphone. So you know that I'm excited about that. Um, I'm excited that once the workshop is, uh, all done, I'll have like my own recording space and get into other aspects of it, like you know, maybe I don't know maybe go do video podcasting or get into the social media stuff that I'm not really big into, like TikTok and short videos. I don't know how to, don't look at me, nah, I don't really. Basically, I'll be learning as I do it, but you know, just some ideas.

Speaker 2: 45:15

If you are an influencer, reach out to us on stories at lockdowntolegacycom for some pro tips. We'd love to hear from you.

Speaker 1: 45:22

And merch. That is something that's coming in 2025. I'm going to have some merchandise because I know we got some loyal listeners, some dedicated fans, and I would love to have some merch for them, whether it be hats, hoodies, you know, t-shirts, water bottles, whatever it is. I'm going to try to get that going, because that is something that I thought about last year and did not come to fruition.

Speaker 2: 45:47

So if you are new here, this is probably a good spot for us to talk about who we are and what we do. So let's transition a little bit from an update on our lives to us. Do you want to talk a little bit about who you are and why this is important and how this podcast began and kind of the history of it?

Speaker 1: 46:07

Sure, all right. So of course my name is Remy Jones, aka Jeremy Jones. I am a formerly incarcerated individual, having served 10 years in state prison in Ohio. After getting out, I just kind of had this self-determination and a plan best of all, to not come back and to not allow all of the doubt that the system likes to sow in us to win. So everyone said how hard it was going to be and all the things that weren't possible. And when they said what was possible, I recognized that it was all trying to condition me to aim low and just survive and not go back, and I didn't like that.

Speaker 2: 47:05

Right.

Speaker 1: 47:06

So you know, I made this little notebook full of goals that were just ostentatious and extreme and I didn't let anybody tell me, no, that's not possible. And so I started getting to it and there were many hiccups along the way and there are many people who continue to say, no, that's not possible. But I found me a good partner in DJ and together we are blazing a trail. So I'm a truck driver, I've sold cars that's pretty much the only two professions that I've had since release almost seven years ago. But I'm also a mentor and consultant and podcast personality consultant and podcast personality and my hope is that everything I do not just on this podcast, not just in mentoring or consulting, but my life in general is an example and a testament to what can happen. And it's not just a fluke. It's not just a one-off experience that I made it out, luke. It's not just a one-off experience that I made it out, but it is actually possible more often than not that you can not only survive without going back to prison, but you can actually thrive.

Speaker 2: 48:25

Right, absolutely. I am Debbie Jones and, as you might have guessed, we are a husband and wife team. Hopefully you would have guessed that at this point in the podcast, but I don't know what I am. I'm a lot of things and nothing all at once. I don't know Right now. I'm finishing up a PhD in educational policy.

Speaker 2: 48:55

My research focuses on the lived experiences of black educators in states with legislation that bans, bars or prohibits the discussion of race in the classroom. That sounds very practiced. It is. It is my statement, it's the thing I have to say about it. So my little abstract, I suppose.

Speaker 2: 49:14

But in addition to that, I think that my professional career has been dedicated similarly to fighting injustice, and so what drew you and I together? A lot of things drew us together, but what drew us together in this line of work is that we see that the criminal legal system is far from just in most ways, and fighting injustice is a lot of what I do in my professional line of work in terms of finding equity, and you and I talked a lot about preventative measures to keep people from going to prison, but we also talked about how there isn't a lot of post-ventative measures. When people come home. There isn't a way to transition, and so we were hoping to create something that spoke to both ends of that spectrum and everything that happens in between you from a standpoint of lived experience and having gone through it from start to finish, but me from the angle of being able to bring the policy lens into that and the behind the curtain a little bit of the why things are written the way they are to continue to keep people oppressed in specific ways.

Speaker 2: 50:31

So the podcast started in October of 2022. All the way back to our first episode. It's Lonely at the Bottom, but prior to that it took a little bit of convincing right.

Speaker 1: 50:42

Yeah, yeah. So, of course, like everything else in my life, dj right here is my biggest supporter and motivator and she was like hey, that thing you talked about, like you should do it. But I have a friend named Shakima who not too long after I got out, you know, we were having all these deep conversations and she was like, bro, like you should start a podcast. And at the time I didn't even know what a podcast was. But she was like man, you could start one up, like, and it costs next to nothing. And so it kind of went in one ear and out the other, but she did not give up on that idea. And then it was just happenstantial that Debbie also was like hey, you mentioned this thing before and I think we should do that. And I was like, eh, okay, well, now the pressure's on right. So here we are and I'm glad that people saw that and wouldn't let it go.

Speaker 2: 51:40

Yeah, and the podcast has kind of evolved over time. It evolved before we started. Right. We had several concepts come up before we recorded that first one in October of 2022. October 13th was our first release date and our anniversary of this podcast, but it went strong for a year and a half, bringing us into what March, april-ish of 2024. At that point, we were just doing a lot of life and it was right before our house going on the market in June and we had to. Just something had to give right, and it's not a good excuse for stepping away from our fans for so long or from people who really enjoy listening to this podcast on a weekly basis. So you know, we're settled again. We're back in our own space and we have our recording equipment up. You've upgraded some equipment, so we're ready to roll.

Speaker 1: 52:34

We're ready to roll. We're bringing it to you the real son, if y'all remember that from the intro from last season. So, yeah, I'm here, I'm ready and I look forward to sharing many stories and experiences with you guys. As always, you guys know the email stories at Lockdown to Legacy. There's also the Lockdown to Legacy podcast on Facebook, so please give your feedback, give your ideas, if there's something you want to hear about. You know if we got the knowledge, you know I'm all for it, and not only us. But we do bring incarcerated individuals on the show and other formerly incarcerated individuals and even supporters of them, people who were in their corner during that experience. So if you have those questions and we can get them answered, by any means, please share those.

Speaker 2: 53:29

We have Remy's done a really good job getting a great lineup for you in terms of interviews for season two. So we've got some really good voices some are old to the podcast. If you want to scroll back through our catalog, re-listen to some things as you are getting ready to hear lockdown to legacy weekly again, um, we've done episodes just you and I talking about different aspects of prison, but we've also done a lot of interviews. Um, podcast concept kind of evolved and we started bringing Warren in. Um started off just happenstance, but then everybody loved Warren so we had to bring him in more. You want to talk about him and your conversations?

Speaker 1: 54:06

Uh. So first, um, warren, we still will have uh regularly for Warren's Wisdom. We will also still have Wise for Wise's World. If you guys haven't checked out those episodes, feel free to look back through the catalog. We are thinking we're going to change the structure of those episodes to make them a little bit more formal, because really they were just conversations with guys I love and we have good, good, deep conversations. But also I wanted to bring back that element of the Summer Legacy Series. So we're going to still do some of those type interviews to show you guys the successes and you know some of the not so successful people who came home and want to share their experiences. So, um, yeah, you know we're going to try to figure out that good balance to not be a big hodgepodge kind of, as we were as we were developing last season, but to not just forego some of those elements that we brought in that I feel like were good and that you guys expressed, that you liked.

Speaker 2: 55:16

Yeah, I think it was important to us. We heard some feedback like not about I guess it wasn't toxic positivity, but about just showcasing the successes of folks. I do think folks need to hear and see that because we don't see enough of that post-incarceration, see enough of that post-incarceration. But also we need to ground it in reality and say sometimes it isn't successful the first time home, or sometimes it isn't successful in the endeavors you're taking on and you have to change course, and so we're going to try to bring in some more of those types of stories so that you can continue to see the persistence of everybody involved in this. So it was a great time away for us to regroup, to think through the elements that we wanted to keep and how the structure needed to move forward, and we're really excited to bring you season two of the Lockdown to Legacy podcast. Any other pieces on the podcast itself.

Speaker 1: 56:09

We're going to bring you guys that same old down-to-earth, real, sometimes funny, sometimes serious, maybe occasionally even sad, but we're going to try to be that. What's the word I'm looking for? Source, that source of just unfiltered experience of the 360, experience of being involved with the criminal legal system.

Speaker 2: 56:38

Well, now that we have given an update on our lives, given an update on the podcast, are you all right if I ask you a couple of closing questions? Oh, sure, you like being put on the spot. I didn't check these ahead of time.

Speaker 1: 56:52

I'm ready, baby. I stay ready. So I got to get ready.

Speaker 2: 56:56

You talked about this just a little bit ago. In terms of it's your. We're coming up on your seventh anniversary of being home and, as you shared just a minute ago, you were in for 10 years. So we're getting closer to the time home post-incarceration, equaling the time in. I'm curious from your perspective now how often are you still thinking about prison?

Speaker 1: 57:25

I still think about prison all the time. I mean, that was a huge experience for me, especially being that when I went to prison I was 19 years old and so by the time I got out, I had spent a third of my life in prison. You know so, unfortunately, prison is a huge part of my life experience, you know so, until I get to that point where it's just a drop in the pond. It's really a big part, and it's always something that I'm comparing to. Something I did in prison, somebody I met in prison, a conversation I had in prison, you know whatever, but mostly when I think about prison, I think about the people I met in prison.

Speaker 1: 58:12

You know, I left a lot of people behind when I came home, and my goal is to not leave them behind. You know, uh, I admit that when I was in there, I was that type of person that people would go home and they would try to give me their contact information. I would turn them down. I'm like, nah, I'm cool bro. Like yeah, we were cool, but like I'm not going to call. You're not going to call, we're not. You know.

Speaker 1: 58:37

But I did hold on to some of those relationships, like Warren, like Wise, and you know some of my other friends. I have a few other friends that are in there, and so they are missed. You know they are missed especially as I. You know they are missed especially as I um have all these new experiences that I try to communicate to them. I try to you know, the whole model of this thing is to let people know like, hey, I did it, you can do it, and so I try to keep giving them new information so that they don't have to try to plan based off of old information or one-sided information, right? So I think about prison all the time, unfortunately and fortunately.

Speaker 2: 59:27

You visited a lot of prison, I think, in the last few years, visiting people like Warren and other friends that are currently inside. Does it ever conjure up anything from you being the person that's coming into the prison now, not the person receiving visitors?

Speaker 1: 59:44

No, I do know the importance of what I'm doing when I go into a prison to visit somebody. So I try not to make it too heavy but I try not to take it too lightheartedly to where it's felt like it's not significant Gotcha. It does feel weird sometimes. Some of the prisons that I've gone to were prisons that I've been in. So I've run into COs that I knew.

Speaker 1: 1:00:12

I've run into administrators I knew and they kind of give you that second look like I know you from somewhere. You know you go through the spiel like, oh yeah, I used to be in here and they're like, oh, when did you get out? And et cetera. But it's surprising how you get to see a whole different side of that person, like CEOs and administrators. I've met the um, one of the unit managers that was always kind of a hard ass, one of the CEOs that was kind of always hard ass, and they're like, oh, what you been up to since you've been out? Obviously if you're coming back in here you must be doing something good. You know you're not getting in trouble and then so I'll give them a quick. You know you're not getting in trouble and then so I'll give them a quick, you know elevator pitch of my story and they're like, well, damn, um, they're really really happy to hear that and that is cool yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:01:11

Um and oh, I had another one for you.

Speaker 2: 1:01:12

I'm going to come up with it, mm-hmm, okay, okay, so now that it's going on year seven, what is like? I know you have a lot of things left that you want to do. You haven't accomplished all of it. In seven years. You've accomplished a lot, but what's like the next thing for you that you want to accomplish, the next thing for you that you want to accomplish, like a thing that you dreamed of while in prison, that you want to actualize now, seven years home?

Speaker 1: 1:01:39

Foreign travel. You know other countries. Yeah, we've done that and that's been awesome. That was a big thing because there is a lot of misinformation about that being a felon. People are like, oh, you can't get your passport, you can't leave the country and this and that, which is not true, like even when you're on supervision you're allowed to, which I don't know who said you can't or why, but it is very common misinformation that's out there being spread. So that was a big thing. I want to get a pardon. That's my thing, man. I want to get a pardon. That's my thing, man.

Speaker 1: 1:02:14

I've managed to overcome having to tell people about my past, not saying I haven't had to tell them, but to where I don't really care. I freely, as you see on this show, I tell people and share my experience, so it hasn't really stopped me from gaining employment or housing or some of these other things that are common barriers when you have a criminal past. But I'm at that point now where it's like at for a very long time to where, if I didn't tell you about my past, you wouldn't be able to ascertain that that is something that I have with me. I don't live to where it looks like I have a past. I don't have any type of thoughts that recidivism is ever going to be a possibility for me, so really, the only reason why I hold on to it is to help other people, to teach other people. So I found out that there are some resources and programs out there that will help you get either an expungement or a pardon full pardon. So when my time is up, that's what I want to do. There is a time limit for how long you've been out or how long you've been off supervision, so that's my next move.

Speaker 1: 1:03:44

Okay, full pardon. Baby, I'm inviting all the listeners. So, whatever we're at, however many listeners we have at that time, best believe we all come into the courthouse deep. I want all the like Southern Baptist preachers out front on the megaphones and we gonna take it to the White House and we gonna take it to Constitution Hall. Ha ha, ha. Like. I want y'all to show up and show out man, because that's going to be huge for me.

Speaker 2: 1:04:19

You haven't even had any caffeine today. I haven't.

Speaker 1: 1:04:22

This is just. I'm ready to take a nap, just you.

Speaker 2: 1:04:28

My last piece. I'm looking forward to it, by the way, but we did this exercise last year, so I'll give you a second to think about it and I'll do mine first, but I want you to think about your word for 2025. I don't know if you remember what your 2024 word was.

Speaker 2: 1:04:46

I don't actually, yeah, we did. I'm sure you could go back on the podcast I think we did it as part of this podcast too so you can go back to the episode and figure out what your word was and how you accomplished it or didn't. It's been a practice of mine to identify a word for the year that I want it to be for me, whether that's who I want to be or whether I want the year to look like for me and I've got a really good one this year.

Speaker 1: 1:05:09

All right, so you're going to start us off.

Speaker 2: 1:05:11

I am my word for 2025, and I hope it's not intended to sound superficial, so I need you to look at the depth of the word rather than it at its surface my 2025 year word is iconic Mm, mm, mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: 1:05:30

So are you going to share your depth or are you just going to let people do their own?

Speaker 2: 1:05:34

Well, I already talked about my graduation. That's really big for me. I don't intend to get another doctorate, right. So it's iconic for me. I will join the 2% of black women with a doctorate degree and that's very cool to me, um. But it's iconic in a lot of other ways too. We are spending our very first full year in our forever home. Um, I started a new job towards the end of 2024 and so I will be coming up on a first full year and they're like so it's. It's iconic because it's the, it's the first of a lot of things and it's the finality of others that have been really integral to who I am the last four years. So I think post-pandemic, right, we can go back to 2020 and realize what happened to the world in that year and the following year, and now we're coming out of that a bit globally, across countries, and the impacts are still there, but the way we interact has completely changed.

Speaker 2: 1:06:47

Yeah, for sure, and so iconic oh tonic, oh, all right.

Speaker 1: 1:07:04

So, um, I do know that in 2018, when I first came home, I had a one word that summed up my life, and that one word was sacrifice, um. And then 2019, 2020, 2021, um, it was growth, you know um, 2022, 2023. I don't really remember what they were, but I do know that, uh, I kind of switched it up a little bit, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:07:28

I think it was hustle because that's when the podcast started. It's when you were doing a lot of the business work and getting your speaking organization off the ground, so it might have been hustle.

Speaker 1: 1:07:38

Maybe it was a hustle, but I guess if I had to come up with one for 2025, what would I say? That is, I can't say contentment. I mean because in some ways I am. I will say that in 2025, I would say self-care, because, as much as I like to talk about how I sacrificed and I was so growth-focused and all this other things, it was all about the hustle.

Speaker 2: 1:08:16

Yeah, you bad at it.

Speaker 1: 1:08:17

I never wanted to take care of myself.

Speaker 2: 1:08:21

Yeah, you bad at self-care.

Speaker 1: 1:08:24

So that's what I want to say for 2025 is self-care.

Speaker 2: 1:08:27

All right, Now that is also on a recorded thing. It's binding Binding legally, I'm sure. Sure, I don't know about all that all right, y'all heard it well, I think that's a great way to bring us back in, uh, bring our listeners up to date so they can be ready for some content when we break into the season next week.

Speaker 1: 1:08:46

Any parting words, mr jones um, my parting words are thank you to everybody who um stuck by us. You know, I still watch the statistics for the podcast and there are people still listening, even though we haven't recorded in six months. So thank you very much to all of you guys. And now that we're back, you know, please continue to support us. You know, continue to share the podcast when the merchandise drops. You know, please hit me up. I'll have it. You know, I'll let you guys know where you can get it. But yeah, that's all I really got to say is thank you for your support.

Speaker 2: 1:09:29

Sounds good to me. We'll see you next week, next week. Peace Bye, thank you. You can reach out to us with any feedback, questions, comments or share the love by emailing stories at lockdown2legacycom. Stories at lockdown2legacycom. You can reach out there too for a free sticker, and you can find us on Instagram and Twitter with the handle at lockdown2legacy and on Facebook at the Lockdown to Legacy podcast. Please don't forget to rate, review and subscribe. No-transcript.