Law Enforcement: Abuse of Power Pt. 2

Stepping through the revolving doors of the criminal justice system elicits a myriad of emotions—it's a world where the lines between right and wrong are often blurred and where power can easily become a weapon. Our journey today isn't for the faint of heart as we tear away the veil to reveal the gritty and complex truths hidden within America's correctional facilities, drawing from the harrowing experiences of those who know it best, including Remie's. From personal stories of becoming a novice soccer coach to the academic rigors of dissertation writing, we share the lessons learned in weaving a tapestry of resilience amidst the turmoil.

The power dynamics within prison walls seldom make it to mainstream conversation, yet they form the backbone of today's candid dialogue. We traverse the dark corridors of abuse, from the physical to the psychological, and lay bare the stories that need to be told. Whistleblowers walk a tightrope, their voices often stifled by the very system meant to guard justice, and we dissect the cultural aftermath. These discussions are punctuated with hope—visions for reform that dignify those behind bars and smooth their re-entry into a world that has moved on without them.

As we wrap up our session, our heartfelt thanks go out to our loyal listeners. We extend a virtual hand to you, our listeners, inviting you to connect, to offer your insight, and to join us in the unfolding narrative of human triumph over adversity. Each episode is a testament to the strength of spirit, from the shadows of incarceration to the bright potential of what lies beyond.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:19

Welcome to Lockdown to Legacy stories from the inside out. I'm your host, remy Jones.

Speaker 2: 0:25

And I am co-host Debbie Jones. We're a husband and wife team here to bring you the real life stories, experiences and questions around the American criminal justice system. We do advise discretion with this podcast. I think we should put that out there first and foremost. Yes, we are going to talk about experiences that happen inside the prison system, outside of prison systems. We will use language that might be offensive, but we intend to keep it real. And if that's not for you, we totally understand, but please do what's best for your listening ears.

Speaker 1: 0:56

Oh, we about to keep it real, son. Our goal of this podcast is to share the inside realities of the American prison and criminal justice system, from pre-charges all the way to post-release, from the voices of those who've experienced it firsthand, including me.

Speaker 2: 1:13

That's right, let's get into it.

Speaker 1: 1:31

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Lockdown to Legacy. I am your host, Remy Jones.

Speaker 2: 1:37

And I am your co-host, Debbie Jones.

Speaker 1: 1:39

Come on, you gotta say it.

Speaker 2: 1:41

What.

Speaker 1: 1:41

The beautiful, the talented.

Speaker 1: 1:43

You can say it about yourself brag on yourself the beautiful, talented, smart and awe-inspiring debbie jones, aka dj. Please don't call her deej. We'll fight all right. Um, before we get too up too far off into this, I owe you all an apology. I had some personal stuff going on in life and I dropped the ball in scheduling in all the different arenas. So I am a new coach of some five and under kids for soccer and I mean, can I publicly say it's not been the best? You've only had one practice. How are you going to say that? And I mean, can I publicly say it's not been?

Speaker 2: 2:24

the best. You've only had one practice. How are you going to say that?

Speaker 1: 2:28

Because that one practice made me question everything about my life. But you know, hey, it's been. I'm waiting on it to be rewarding. I think it will be good.

Speaker 2: 2:40

It'll be fun. It was the first one. They were just excited.

Speaker 1: 2:43

Yeah, and you know I'm thinking of some new stuff. Got some new plans as far as practices go and I can't wait for the first game. It is going to be epic to see these little kids scrambling around with nothing but the bright, shiny ball to chase.

Speaker 2: 3:01

They don't know how to score a goal. They don't know how to kick a ball. They don't know how to kick a ball.

Speaker 1: 3:06

When it happens, it's going to be big. It should be Someone's going to get it to roll in that net.

Speaker 2: 3:11

Hilarious.

Speaker 1: 3:12

And they're going to cheer and I'm going to be proud, Mm-hmm. So other than that, on updates, you know things are pretty chill.

Speaker 2: 3:24

We've got a vacation next week, which is exciting.

Speaker 1: 3:27

That's what I was going to say. Vacation going to Philly. We got any Philly listeners? Please tap in, hit us up on social media, give us some suggestions of what we should look at. Remember, we need something, a little balance. You know, I'm from the hood. I want to see something, at least one thing ratchet, but I prefer to stay safe. Also, I don't need any of that.

Speaker 2: 3:48

I want the history and the museums and the places to eat.

Speaker 1: 3:55

Yeah, and I ain't talking about Whataburger, you got anything like that. Keep it off the list. I'm talking about bougie eating. All right, all right. Other other updates, other updates, other updates. Um, working hard on that dissertation it's been some late nights burning that, uh, what they call it, the midnight oil I think that's the phrase. Yeah, yeah but progress, progress is happening. I'm proud, I'm proud of you.

Speaker 2: 4:25

Thank you. It's a labor of love. I think it's a baby. It's a lot of work so I guess so.

Speaker 1: 4:34

Yeah, it's just like a baby. You're going to cry sometimes. You're probably going to cry for no reason, you don't even know why. But at the end I'm going to be taking them pictures of you holding them little plaques and stuff. I'm ready?

Speaker 2: 4:50

you're just ready for it to be over?

Speaker 1: 4:51

I think I mean I'm about just as ready as you are, but you know I'm gonna do it with a smile. I'm gonna do it with a smile, um other than that we are getting ready for spring you know, if any of you guys know what ohio uh spring is like, it's uh winter, you know, with uh and tornadoes.

Speaker 1: 5:10

A couple warm days, we've had some really bad tornadoes, um, some of them have affected our family, um, but we've been very fortunate that the majority of it has not. But, um, you know, our hearts and condolences go out to the places around us that were hit very hard. There have been some casualties and a lot of damage. So I mean, if you guys could look up some organizations to donate to that are helping out with the relief, that'd be great. I don't think I have any that I can post in the links right now.

Speaker 2: 5:46

Check out your local United Way chapters. They are leading a lot of the effort, as well as the emergency management agencies, EMA or FEMA, F-E-M-A of the state of Ohio. They are all kind of leading the charge.

Speaker 1: 6:02

That's why I keep you baby, that's why I keep you close.

Speaker 2: 6:05

Got all the official stuff. Man Happy to help and contribute in that way. And lastly, we will announce this again at the end, but we've got a pretty big announcement, right.

Speaker 1: 6:18

For sure it's. I don't know, depending on how you look at it good news, bad news, whatever but in the end, in the grand scheme of things, I think it's going to be a very positive thing for the podcast. And that thing is we are going to go on hiatus, more like changing the format of it. So you know, a lot of podcasts do seasons and we were thinking that that would be a good thing to do. Give us time to kind of get ahead, mass record some stuff and not be so pressed to fit everything into this schedule. You know, remember we got four kids. We're working full-time jobs, going to school and other things, but this is something that we definitely love doing and don't want to give up on, and I definitely don't want to half-ass you either. So it'll give me a chance to put those good ideas that I've been mentioning into the production line and we're going to come back bigger and better.

Speaker 2: 7:22

And so you will continue to hear from us until the end of this month, so that it's not a disruption to your normal listening. So don't expect that today's it, and then you're never going to hear from us again. We're not going to ghost you like that. So you'll hear from us until the end of April, regular Fridays, like normal, and then we will announce weekly. You'll get this repetition and reminder and we will be putting out when our new season will drop after that, but my guess is it will be sometime midsummer.

Speaker 1: 7:56

Yeah, also, it's not going to be a total radio silence. We're still going to be active on social media. So, um, I'll still be making periodic posts there and, uh, giving you guys updates on the upcoming additions to new features to the podcast. So if you guys still want to engage with us that way, I strongly recommend it and I will be so happy.

Speaker 2: 8:23

And our ask of you in the interim is please write in your questions, particularly for Warren and Wise. That's an episode that we are really hoping to put together and we want some more questions for that. So if you've been thinking of, what does this look like in prison? What does this look like? How does everybody go to the bathroom? That's usually the big one, right Like, how does this stuff happen? Like, if you want to know those things, no question is off of the table. They are willing to answer. Remy, of course, is also willing to contribute his knowledge, past experiences, to that conversation. But send us a kite.

Speaker 1: 9:05

Yeah, oh, that was a good one, thank you. Also, when it comes to Warren and Wise, these guys have been laying their hearts out there, man. They have even expressed interest in you guys right now, and so if you have questions regarding, like, what was like life like before prison, what led to, you know, prison, or the current circumstances, or what they've been doing in the meantime to better prepare for coming home, like, I think they'd be very receptive to that. So, like I said, whatever within reason, you know, just try to be respectful about it. And I mean those guys will love to, you know, shower you with their stories, with their insights, you know, and they love it just as much as we do. They have expressed their gratitude for the people who have sent word to them, you know, and, in general, just for having this platform. So I'm glad that we could do that, and they are too.

Speaker 2: 10:11

And so you can submit those questions to us formally via email at stories at lockdown2legacycom, or you can send those to us via message. Of course, we do have social media platforms. We are active on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and Facebook Messenger. Yes, you can message us on any of those and also the big one.

Speaker 1: 10:34

One of the additions that I kept talking about is our website, which I would like to take the time to shout out lockdowntolegacycom. There is a place where you can give your shout out and it will be submitted directly to us, and so that is one of the things that I would like to strongly encourage you to take the time to visit.

Speaker 2: 10:57

Great. Any other updates from your end.

Speaker 1: 11:01

Nah.

Speaker 2: 11:01

All right. Well, let's take a break and then we're going to get into it. The following episode of the lockdown to legacy podcast features language we don't often use in other episodes, and so we wanted to provide appropriate warning. Within this episode, we talk about instances of physical violence, sexual assault and victimization, and potentially harmful language out of context. Viewer discretion is advised. So our topic tonight is a part two of an episode we did a couple weeks ago about the abuse of power.

Speaker 1: 11:44

Yep. So we talked about the abuse of power on the side of law enforcement, as in, you know, police officers and that type of thing, but the mostly overlooked arm of the law is corrections officers.

Speaker 2: 12:01

And we alluded to this a little bit within that episode that corrections is a little bit harder to patrol, and so this is going to come up a little bit more. You know, law enforcement has its pitfalls in terms of how things get enforced, what reviews look like, what's available to the public, but corrections is a little bit even more of a mystery, because we still have a lot of privatized institutions within the prison system and while these private institutions are slowly, very slowly going away, they still exist. And so, as a general understanding, what we're talking about tonight is misconduct. We are going to talk about it, but we're talking about misconduct from this standpoint of. This is an intentional abuse of authority, an intentional taking of a position of power, right of a power, differential power dynamic and using it to one's advantage.

Speaker 2: 13:05

And the population we're talking about specifically is those who are incarcerated. So misconduct, by legal dictionary definition, is any unlawful conduct on the part of a person concerned in the administration of justice which is prejudicial to the rights of parties. So when we're thinking about this misconduct, this can be lots of different types of abuse or neglect that happens towards incarcerated folks in lots of different ways. According to the Black Law Dictionary, abuse is cruelty that causes harm to another. I think we can think of abuse pretty broadly, and with incarcerated folks this tends to show up in physical, sexual, emotional, psychological or neglectful ways.

Speaker 1: 13:55

Yes, and we're not just talking about in men's prison, we're also referring to women's prison and juvenile detention facilities.

Speaker 2: 14:05

They're also referring to women's prison and juvenile detention facilities and what's interesting and a little bit sad is the prevalence of correctional officer misconduct. It's hard to kind of get this data. I looked on Prison Policy Institute and the Marshall Project and Sentencing Project and lots of other places that really do these briefings, that kind of put the data out there and even within those really well vetted evidence, you know informed type of places who do this work daily, they were like this is a hard one to put a finger to because it's so swept under the rug to put a finger to, because it's so um swept under the rug and each institution has its own kind of review process and policies associated and what's released to the public is um nil right, heavily redacted.

Speaker 1: 14:58

um, as many of you know, like the freedom of information act is the main tool that is used to police, the police. Whenever there's body cam footage, whenever there's police reports, you know you file a Freedom of Information Act request to get that footage or information or whatever, so that it can be viewed by the public. When it comes to corrections, it's not so easily gained, like even with a Freedom of Information Act request. It's like they really don't have to abide by that because of security issues. And that's the first thing they quote is like no, we can't show you that security footage because it reveals the exact location of security cameras, what cameras are active and what cameras are decoys and such things as that. So a lot of times there is footage and they refuse to release it, and that makes it really hard, especially as someone on the inside who's fighting for justice. It makes it hard for us on the outside fighting for justice. But if you don't have anybody on the outside to fight for you, you're pretty much just screwed if you're on the inside.

Speaker 2: 16:16

Yeah, and that's unfortunate, and that's a point that's going to come up again and again as we talk is this notion that if something wrong is happening to you, who do you then report that to, if the person who is quote unquote in charge of you is the one being unlawful towards you in some regard? So how do you then report this incident of happening or this pattern of abuse happening? If this person is in a position of authority over you, and with incarcerated folks, it's as if everybody is in a position that's better than you. You're looked at as nobody right.

Speaker 1: 16:59

Right. I think a lot of us have seen instances where there have been officers that became whistleblowers, where they have stopped a fellow officer from committing some type of wrong or they have reported on that officer doing that wrong and then they were severely blackballed and punished afterwards. Yeah, and that is the same for corrections. I even have a personal instance where I was sent to the hole and there was the lady that wrote the ticket on me got another CO who was pretty racist, openly racist, to back her story. That was a lie, pretty racist and openly racist to back her story. That was a lie. And another CEO came and wrote a statement for me on my behalf saying that they witnessed what happened.

Speaker 1: 17:54

So the original lady who wrote me up got fired, but not too long after that the lady who wrote a statement on me on my behalf actually got fired also. So it's it's really hard to, like I said, even when you're on the inside, you're trying to figure out who can I get to come to my my you know my side to help and you get somebody who wants to do the right thing and then they immediately get them out of there.

Speaker 2: 18:22

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 18:23

Um. We also had a um. What was he Major who was demoted? They said he was too inmate friendly. So, it happens, and it really happens, no matter what height you rise to within that hierarchy.

Speaker 2: 18:40

Yeah, and I have a little. I think I have a few examples of those coming up towards the end that I want to talk about, because I always try to leave some policy recommendation, but policy is hard when there is no infrastructure to support it. So we can kind of dissect that a little bit closer to the end. But I wanted to kind of give some examples and of course, remy, you can add your own personal stories to this, because I'm sure the things you have seen parallel this or, you know, exacerbate this further. So these are some examples of types of misconduct as reported by the Federal Bureau of Investigations. So they are correction officer Paul Tillis of Florida was convicted of intentionally pouring, scalding hot water on an inmate and refusing medical assistance for the injury which occurred. That was in 2005. Another correction officer here in Ohio, actually Seth Bunke, was convicted of kicking an inmate repeatedly in the face and head. I probably should have put a trauma warning at the beginning of this. So if you made it through those two, my apologies. Some of these are going to be a little bit trigger warning ish Um.

Speaker 2: 19:56

Correction officer in New Mexico was convicted of sexual abuse of a female inmate in 2010. As you can imagine that's really common and it's going to come up um within this episode too. Corrections officer in Wisconsin was convicted of sexual abuse of multiple female inmates in 2014. An officer in Florida was convicted of bribery in 2015. The officer accepted money from inmates in exchange for contraband.

Speaker 2: 20:23

Correction officer Charles Stocker was charged with aiding and abetting drug trafficking in 2017. The officer is accused of providing details of ongoing investigations by the local drug task force to drug dealers. Correction officer in Florida was charged with false statements to federal investigators in 2015. This officer was verbally and visually recorded discussing past monetary exchanges with inmates for contraband, and the officer denied any discussions ever. Past monetary exchanges with inmates for contraband and the officer denied any discussions ever occurred like that with inmates. And then correction officer Harold Walby of Florida was convicted of the identity theft of several inmates occurring between 2010 and 2012. The officer kept records of several inmates and used the information to file false tax returns. That's not one that occurred to me. It was identity theft and stealing a personal identification like that.

Speaker 1: 21:21

I mean it's something you don't think of, but after hearing it it kind of becomes obvious, because these are the people who open your mail and read your stuff before you can get it. I mean they type your name into an information portal right there on a computer and your name, your date of birth, your social security number and everything is right there in your jacket that's what we call it on inside your jacket, I mean they know when you're getting out, they know how long you've been in.

Speaker 2: 21:59

So I mean pretty much it tells them everything they can get away with and how long they got. I mentioned sexual abuse. I think we should stop and pause and talk a little bit about that. And pause and talk a little bit about that. And I know you've got a Prison Policy Institute article that talks about sexual victimization in prisons. But really the sexual abuse of inmates has had significant attention within the last 20 years because of the Prison Rape Elimination Act of 2003. And that act required that comprehensive policies be implemented and enforced by all correction facilities at every level. And Congress found that it is an inmate's civil right to be free of any form of sexual abuse by another inmate as well as a correctional staff. And I think that that second part of that clause is actually the one that's less highlighted. Everybody assumes, I mean, we hear the don't drop the soap, I feel like kind of jokes about incarceration a lot and perpetuated by media, but the prevalence at which corrections officers are sexually abusing incarcerated people is staggering.

Speaker 1: 23:22

Yeah, you know, when stuff like this is first implemented, there is, on the short end, an era of overdoing it. And I remember when Priya first came really heavily into the joint and it was so big that they installed alarms. Like when you enter the block, there was this place. You had to scan your badge and for female officers it would like alarm. You know sirens with lights and everything would go off saying hey and a female's entering the building. So you know, if you don't have a shirt on, you have to put on a shirt.

Speaker 1: 24:07

If you're in a shower, you have to make sure, like you know, shirt on, you have to put on a shirt. If you're in a shower, you have to make sure, like you know, the curtains closed, whatever, like you could not in any way be um inappropriate around a female. Um and even on, like staff and inmates alike, like there was no room for you to be overheard, um saying anything like sexually derogative, you calling anybody a punk, a fag, like anything like that, like demeaning on homosexuality, like you would find yourself back in court. There was no wiggle room and um, I remember like seeing how angry some of the ceos because I mean they would sit there and talk about this stuff openly all day, and it basically became like like nobody, everybody was afraid to say anything wrong, you know, um, and nobody wanted to work with some of the female officers that would come in there. It was really kind of a weird time, um, but now that it's leveled out, you know it's actually doing what it's meant to do and protect everybody, you know.

Speaker 2: 25:16

Yeah, and you know the numbers on this. I think it's hard to kind of get these reports in some way that you know how many folks in prison and jail systems are actually experiencing this. The Prison Policy Institute article I was referencing had some prevalent statistics, but I know that they're a little bit older, from about 2010. And so it talked about an estimated 4.4% of prison inmates and 3.1% of jail inmates reported experiencing one or more incidences of sexual victimization by another inmate or facility staff. Specifically, regarding facility staff, they said that about 2.8% of prison inmates and 2.0% of jail inmates had sexual contact or sex with staff, and most of those were non-incidencies of willingness. And I thought it was also really important to highlight that sexual activity with facility staff was reported more by male prisoners than female prisoners, by almost a percent in both prison and in jail.

Speaker 2: 26:45

So I think those statistics, which they seem small right 2.1, 2.0, 4% is about 88,000. So that's 88,000 people who are having unwanted sexual contact in circumstances that they cannot control or leave. That's the other component that I think gets really overlooked. When we're thinking about this is like, oh, 4%, 3%, 2%. But these are folks who are in environments where they can't just leave their perpetrator. They can't just go home, they can't, but also they can't report that in a way in which they're confident that something will be done about it.

Speaker 1: 27:28

Right, um, when it comes to reporting something like that, or even just um, trying to resist, um, you have to remember that this is a person who has total control over you. You know, this is a person who, during their shift, could make your life a living hell. Um, I've said it before and I was not exaggerating If a CEO came up to you and they were like hey, strip butt naked right here, I don't care if you're in the hallway, I don't care if you're in the middle of chow hall, they're like hey, strip naked. If they say they have any reason of suspicion or whatever, they can cook up anything. They can have 10 COs right there surrounding you stripping you butt naked in front of everybody. Oh sorry, um, so yeah, they can have. You know, 10 COs right there surrounding you stripping you butt naked in front of everybody.

Speaker 1: 28:22

Um, and, like I said, in prison there's a thing called a rule 21, which is the most used rule infraction, disobedience of a direct order. A rule 21 is something that you have to comply with and then report later in order to fight it. Stupid, right? So simply by saying no, I'm not going to do that means you're going to be met with, you know force. Those CEOs are going to show up. You know they're going to not ask any questions. They're going to apply as much force as they need to need to for you to comply. And then, after all of that, who's going to listen to you?

Speaker 1: 29:06

you know, but at the same time it's like if you have to degrade yourself or whatever, um, and also like, even if it doesn't get to that level, you simply say no and that staff member feels some type of way like they can change your um, they can change your duty assignment, like. I had it one time where and I mean mean it didn't involve sexual anything but, um, just out of spite, my duty assignment was changed from student to cleaning the toilets, like, and the unit manager wasn't in that day, they weren't going to be back for three days. So it's like, who do I talk to you?

Speaker 2: 29:44

know right, there's nobody to rectify that or advocate or go to bat for you.

Speaker 1: 29:51

It's just like you're you're stuck yeah, and I even explained like hey, man, like I got finals going on, I gotta do this college, college work. And they were like no, I don't care nothing about that. Like go clean these showers and then tell me when you're done, because I got some more work for you and I had no contact with this dude prior to that.

Speaker 1: 30:08

Really, it wasn't even too much out of spite. It was because somebody had got caught smuggling some contraband in and he just needed it done. He picked the first person and when I said no, then he got mad, so yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:24

And I think I mean, I know you've got a friend currently going through some of this. You know a friend currently going through some of this. You know, let me use my authority to put you in a position type of stuff going on right now, but I think that that's the, that's the highlight of these, both of these episodes. It's here I am in a position that holds weight, value, authority, and just because I can, here are things I'm going to do to debase, to humiliate, to dehumanize somebody else and that, to me, I don't know. I can't imagine feeling like I have that position of power over another human being, and I think that goes back to well, sometimes incarcerated people aren't seen as human beings, they are seen as less than because of um, like, like using, oh, they committed a crime or they got sentenced to jail or prison is now an excuse to treat somebody horribly yeah, and don't get me wrong, like I've, in previous episodes talked about your crime, you know your crime.

Speaker 1: 31:39

There are levels to. You know how you're treated in prison based off of what crime you've committed. And you know, unfortunately, sexually based crimes are at the bottom. And you know, unfortunately, sexually based crimes are at the bottom. You know, if you have a crime against a child or a sex case or a crime against the elderly, most times inmates will you know they'll be violent towards you. They'll, like, totally ostracize you. But a lot of times the staff do too, ostracize you, um, but a lot of times the staff do too, um, and there are even staff who have like they're cool with groups of inmates and they'll come over and tell a group of inmates like yo, this dude's in here for whatever, like I don't want him. You know I don't want him around my desk, I don't want him this and that. Like y'all handle it like.

Speaker 2: 32:28

That happens regularly, you know um, sorry, was that a loss there? I am processing this. I don't know it's. It's hard for me to wrap my head around and that's why, you know, when this um, when the original law enforcement story came up, I was like we got to talk about this because, um, utilizing a position to, I don't know, enforce rule over somebody else has always been really hard for me to kind of grapple with and understand. Um, and how we can rank people, uh, is another thing that's, I think, challenging to me.

Speaker 1: 33:14

Yeah, I mean, but that doesn't just happen on the inside, we do that out here, yeah.

Speaker 1: 33:20

Which is why I think this podcast is really so important and in the beginning I said it like I want to bridge the gap between the community and the incarcerated people is because from out here in society, all we think about is a bunch of people who committed crimes and are on the other side of the fence.

Speaker 1: 33:40

We don't think about who those people are, the lives they have and what they mean to their families and people. On the outside, all we say is what a murderer, what a drug dealer, what a child abuser, you know, whatever it is like. We literally define them by the crimes they were convicted of, not even realizing the circumstances or the fact that some of them are innocent. I'm not advocating saying everybody in prison is innocent. I'm just saying that's how we view prisons, not only because of our ignorance, but also because of pop culture. So when you think about what actually goes on on the inside, it's not just a bunch of guys lifting weights and fucking each other in the shower. That's not what it is. It's literally people trying to live their life day by day until they have hope of continuing in a different light. You know.

Speaker 2: 34:44

Yeah, I think another component of this misconduct thing that's important to highlight is we have this perceived mentality of incarcerated individuals.

Speaker 2: 34:56

Exactly what you're just saying of misconduct allegations doubled and then between 2010 and 2020, it doubled again, and I don't think that that's probably because more folks are speaking out.

Speaker 2: 35:22

I think it's probably because more incidences are happening, Even with things like the introduction of the Prison Rape Elimination Act, I feel. Well, I mean, we also have to control, for the amount of people in prison is increasing as well within those two decades too, so it's hard to know what that is. But when you have over 60% of misconduct allegations resulting in suspension for the corrections officer that the allegations made against, then we have a problem with how we are handling misconduct allegations on the inside and with training and with I don't know. I can't imagine that it's an easy job with I don't know. I can't imagine that it's an easy job. I can't imagine it's a fun time to be a corrections officer, but I also can't imagine taking that position and then, you know, feeling within some period of time that I need to commit some level of misconduct to the point where I have to be suspended from my job because there's some level of truth to it.

Speaker 1: 36:33

I think on some levels, it might be related to groupthink. For those of you who don't know what groupthink is, it's a psychological term based on basically losing yourself in the crowd. Uh, the individual loses a lot of their cognitive, cognitive, uh individuality and just goes with the flow of the crowd. A lot of people do a lot of things that is not characteristic of themselves, um, in large crowds, and so I think that that may be one aspect of it. Um, and another aspect is, um you know, I talked about this before too A lot of times prisons are built in small communities, um rural areas, or, you know, small developing towns, or formerly developed towns, you know, um industrial towns and stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 37:31

So, being that it's in a small town, sometimes the people from that community end up incarcerated in there, and it's very hard, I imagine, to be a CO in there and see the guy who beat up your sister, you know, or you know, see the girl who, you know, stole somebody in your family's credit card information and victimized them, or something like that. Like, if you see them, how do you then like not retaliate, especially if you're one of those people who is in charge of a large group of inmates and you say hey, if you guys do something, this person you know, I'll give you x, y and z benefits.

Speaker 1: 38:14

That happens too yeah um, I, I was actually um in a group like that I wouldn't call it a group, but uh, there was a ceo that I actually got cool with and, um, you know, he was actually from that city and knew a lot of guys from that city that he grew up with, that were incarcerated with, and he would give us information all the time and ask for favors all the time.

Speaker 2: 38:42

How did you feel about it then?

Speaker 1: 38:44

Back then, gotta gotta, um, be honest, man, I was a different person and back then I was just looking about. You know what's in it for me, and so I mean, I did things you know, and it's hard because, looking at it from a different mind state back then, I could always say like I didn't do anything too bad. But looking at it from who I am now, I'm like I would never do that nowadays. So it's it's really hard to look back on it and say with objectivity how bad it was. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:27

Well, I won't have you dwell on it too long. How about that?

Speaker 1: 39:30

I've had encounters with staff members, I've had female staff approach me and stuff. It's a part of doing time.

Speaker 2: 39:44

I didn't know if you were going to talk about that or not yeah, I told her about it already.

Speaker 1: 39:49

Um, I won't go into too much detail, but I mean it definitely happens. And back then, you know, I was uh, 20 years old, so it was very flattering and something to brag on, you know. And you know you're thinking in your head like man, I ain't gonna hit the streets for another. At the time I was like I ain going to hit the streets for another. At the time I was like I ain't going to hit the streets for another eight years, sure. But uh, yeah, I mean it. It it's kind of like being a kid and having, like you know, like a high school kid, having a teacher hit on him or something. Yeah, it seems cool. At the time you don't realize just how big of a deal and inappropriate it is and how much of a power vacuum you're in.

Speaker 2: 40:35

Yeah, yeah, well, thanks for sharing no problem I wasn't sure. I didn't know if you were going to talk about it or not. I wasn't going to force you to.

Speaker 1: 40:46

Uh, you know I saw you kept looking at me what's that supposed to mean?

Speaker 2: 40:50

I'm, we're recording again I'm looking over at you because we're talking all right, but that's the past and now we're in the here and now, looking ahead to the future and now I'm a hater, I'm an advocate.

Speaker 2: 41:04

That's hating on somebody's run well I think that, um, you just don't know what you don't know right. And so, um, even when I was reading some of these briefs uh, particularly about sexual victimization um, some folks within that survey talked about how, at the time, it was, I mean, they would have considered it consensual and then, as they were able to reflect on it later, they were like, oh it, it wasn't really like. I just, I guess it was at the time because I said the word but it didn't feel like I had a choice. So there's a layer in there that I don't think people have the ability to really think through in the moment. But when you get to step away from it and look back, there's always new perceptions or perspectives. What did you call that? You taught me this term Hindsight bias.

Speaker 1: 42:00

Hindsight bias, yeah, and according to Ohio law, a person of authority, especially in a position of like a corrections officer or staff member, like they, have such control over you that it is impossible for you to give consent in that situation. According to Ohio law, that's relevant, that's important, yeah, so I don't care if you were the one that approached them, if they consented and went through with it. It's still on them like it's.

Speaker 2: 42:33

It's impossible that feels fair, because exactly what we're talking about is this power differential. Somebody here has more rights than the other person here. It's really clear cut who that is within the scenario. So, according to Federal Bureau of Prisons, there are three types of classifications for misconduct if an allegation is made, and so those fall within three tiers of severity. Classification one does include PREA, which you talked about earlier and how that kind of took over as soon as it was introduced, so it doesn't surprise me that falls within category one, which is the most severe. But also physical assault, bribery, theft over $100,000. That seems high. Drug trafficking, false statements, facilitating escape and aiding and abetting criminal activity with inmates is a tier one classification. Tier two is physical threats, off-duty, felony misconduct and misuse of government property, and tier three includes abusive language, not following policy properly, off-duty, misdemeanor misconduct and use of alcohol and drugs while on duty. It's a tier three.

Speaker 2: 43:46

Some of those were surprising to me, and so there's not a lot of descriptive policy about what falls within that, but those are the three specific categories that folks can fall into. We did talk a little bit about how much misconduct happens and what it results in. I mentioned that over 60% of allocations lead to at least one day suspension. That was a number as of 2014. We're obviously 10 years. We're 10 years from 2014.

Speaker 1: 44:17

Okay, don't say that, don't say that out loud that aloud.

Speaker 2: 44:21

Sorry that hurt me out loud to do that quick math feelings man um, so that number is a little bit outdated. I don't know where we are now, but that still seems high for 10 years ago uh over 60 percent leading to a one day at least one day suspension.

Speaker 2: 44:39

Um, and in that same year, there were 34 arrests made of corrections officers because of misconduct that consisted of illegal activity by the FBI. So the issue is existing right. I think it's important enough to highlight and say it's happening, because if these are the numbers that are being actually reported and we've already talked about the cameras, we've talked about the advocacy and being able to get a hold of the video or of the recording or of the statements that aren't redacted so if these are the things that people are able to get a hold of, it's resulting in this what else is happening behind closed doors that we don't know?

Speaker 1: 45:29

Right, and you know, when it comes to reporting and you're talking about an instance of misconduct like sexual misconduct or contraband, smuggling or something like that, um, or even abusive language and stuff, you got to remember the reluctance of people to report it. Um, if you thought it was bad out here in the free world for people to report stuff like this, I mean, and there is so much worse because, um, for a long time you had to report it to the people that are committing the problems.

Speaker 1: 46:03

I mean we, we. You mentioned the term kite. You know we would have to go to the CEO and say, hey, can I have a kite? We would have to write everything that we wanted to report on this kite and give it back to the CEO for them to put it in the mailbox. And so it's like, why would I even waste my time to report that, you know, um, when it's not going to go anywhere, like it might not even make it to the mailroom, you know? So, like I said, um, those numbers are kind of staggering, I mean when you look at it more in depth, but they also reflect that the majority of it goes unreported.

Speaker 2: 46:47

And so I want to kind of wrap with the what do we do about it? So what? And I think that in a lot of the pieces that you and I read to kind of prepare and talk about this, they talked about like ethical leadership and supervision, and I think that those recommendations are great, right, that having active management and having intentional one-on-ones and doing preventative or proactive retention and prevention strategies are important, but I don't know that that's necessarily effective. I think that Colonel David Parrish of Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office in Tampa puts it really well. He says you can have all the standard operating procedures in the world, but you actually have to follow them, and so you can put all of these things in place. But if whoever is in charge isn't following said procedure, or if it's an expectation that, or like if everybody within the unit or within the facility knows that you know the colonel is going to, you know, be fine, the major is going to do whatever the captain's got this, be fine, the major's gonna do whatever the captain's got this, like.

Speaker 1: 48:03

I mean, I feel like that if there's an understanding that these are just it's kind of like pirates of the caribbean, like these are just guidelines, not rules, um that it doesn't necessarily change the culture yeah, um, I like to piggyback that kind of and um, I think a good solution would be just a periodic reminder on the staff's part of what their mission is, you know their mission statement, because I think the day-to-day operations just go off of that culture you mentioned and that whole like this is a brotherhood, us against them mentality, and not like a reminder of like how many lives are we changing in a positive way, how many people are we, you know, getting ready to return to the population, and you know, and are they ready, are they equipped to succeed, type thing. I think if we reframed it in that way it would go like so far.

Speaker 2: 48:58

And I think yeah, I think it's exactly that this positive reframe, I think is important and I think that you and I talk about this all the time. We've mentioned it on this podcast more than once that um, at least in ohio, it's the department of rehabilitation and correction, right like, but the rehabilitation is the um leading thing. It's we are here to help. We are here to help somebody get back home, not like we are babysitters of the worst of the worst or like those kinds of things that often get um, perpetuated and internalized because, depending on the mentality of the folks in charge, uh, dictates a lot of what the practice is of those in charge as well charge uh, dictates a lot of what the practice is of those in charge as well.

Speaker 1: 49:44

Yeah, I mean, but it also, um, it affects the people that are being supervised also. Um, if I'm incarcerated and I know that the people in charge look down on me, then everything about the way I'm doing my time is like man, fuck them, because if it was them, it'd be fuck me right.

Speaker 2: 50:05

Yeah, those are good points too.

Speaker 2: 50:08

The last note I'll make is that a lot of what is up against change is also union.

Speaker 2: 50:16

So a lot of corrections are unionized and unions are harder to penetrate, right, because they have lawyers and a lot of advocacy and you have to appease the union, and so a lot of states are taking those things on. They are putting other things in place. Specifically, new York, they took on the corrections union Union in 2016, and kind of helped change that contract to better benefit the people that corrections officers serve, which are incarcerated folks. They serve them and I think that that's a part of that reframing that we were talking about just a minute ago. And so a lot of the prison, the prison's legal services in New York, said changing the scene isn't just about identifying bad actors, it's not just about the grievances, it's about how do they get substantiated and how are these things tracked from facility to facility and how do we actually penalize that so that things change? And how do we actually penalize that so that things change? Because if you file a grievance, it gets substantiated but nothing happens as an outcome, then it's not an effective system anyway.

Speaker 1: 51:30

And so they worked with the union on that and were able to see some change within the state. I think in that regard, by doing that and by holding the bad apples accountable, I think it opens up the door to attract a better, higher quality. What's the word I'm looking for? Not talent, but like a employee.

Speaker 1: 51:49

Right, you know like it kind of goes back to like when you were in like elementary and middle school. Like you wanted to grow up to be a cop and you admire them, you know. And then you grew up and you found out what it was really like and all the dickheads and bullies in school became cops. It's like well damn. But if we go back to that older you know more, um like hold them to a higher regard, then you will start, you know, attracting the good guys again who actually sign up to be police officers and correction officers to serve the greater good.

Speaker 2: 52:25

And a lot of this is also infrastructure and I think that's important. We recognize that it's hard to attract the best and brightest talent when you don't have any money to pay them. We know that CEOs don't make good salaries, at least in our state. I imagine that that's probably true in a lot of places. So it's hard to bring in the best when you can't pay the best. And we also know the shortage of COs that exist right now. We have heard from Wise and from Warren about how lack of staff has changed their day-to-day life, because it dictates what they are and aren't allowed to do, because they can't go out to the yard if there's no staff to go out with them or like those kinds of pieces. So we fully recognize the infrastructure too, and it kind of just goes back to this age old cart before the horse type of thing. Do you change the policy first or do you hire the people first, like what has to come first, so that things change? So we fully recognize that, but I think it's possible. I think it's possible.

Speaker 1: 53:24

Anything's possible, babe.

Speaker 2: 53:28

Thank you, and I had another thing, but now I lost it.

Speaker 1: 53:35

Snooze you lose. I'll take the time to highlight something that I think is actually I thought was kind of weird. But as I thought on it a little more, I kind of see, like in this context of this conversation, the value of it. In one of our Warren's wisdom episodes Warren talked about how in the normalcy block block the staff and the inmates call each other by their first names and at first I was like that's not a little weird. I mean, even warren said, like you know, coming up to a ceo like hey, joe, you know it's like it's kind of weird.

Speaker 1: 54:16

Um, I've even been on the phone with him while like a ceo walked pass and he said something to him. I thought he was talking to another inmate. I was like dude, that is, it's weird man. But it kind of aligns with the name of the project which is the normalcy block. Um, and when you have that kind of a peer toer respect for each other from the CO and the inmate, I mean of course the inmate has earned that right. They're not just giving it, but I mean it goes a long way from both sides for them showing respect for each other and respect is one of the components of being a good supervisor, yeah, and respect is one of the components of being a good supervisor.

Speaker 2: 55:02

Yeah, I think that's a good way to look at it, as CEOs are supervisors of incarcerated folks, like that. They're the employee, and so it's not to say that power differentials don't exist in our everyday life. They're built into our corporate lives, and I mean, like almost every job's got a supervisor right, like, unless you're working for yourself, um, somebody who's got a boss, or everybody's got a boss, um, but there are ways to frame that relationship so that it doesn't have to be negative, um, and I think that's a perfect place to end it as a possibility or a sense of hope as to where we can go next.

Speaker 1: 55:42

Yeah, that sort of aligns with bridging that gap. You know, building bridges, all right. Well, thank you everybody for tuning in Once again. As stated earlier, we will be taking a hiatus at the end of this month, the end of April. As stated earlier, we will be taking a hiatus at the end of this month, the end of April, and we will keep you guys updated and give you more info as it comes in about the outlook and prospect of that. But before that ever happens, man, I feel like I really got to give my thanks to you guys for sticking with us this long and all the feedback and support. You know, tuning in with us weekly. I really appreciate it and I love you very much for that, and I'm hoping that when we come back we'll have even more good features and it'll be a lot more streamlined, so that on your end and our end, we can all get the most out of it. So with that, peace, bye.

Speaker 2: 56:48

The Lockdown to Legacy podcast is proud to be a part of the Buzzsprout Podcast Community Network. Lockdown to Legacy is recorded at Cohatch in their lovely audiophile room. Thanks for your scholarship. Audio engineering is done by our very own Remy Jones. You can reach us with any feedback, questions, comments or share the love by emailing stories at lockdown2legacycom. Stories at lockdown2legacycom. You can reach out there too for a free sticker, and you can find us on Instagram and Twitter with the handle at Lockdown2Legacy and on Facebook at the Lockdown2Legacy podcast. Thanks for listening, thank you.