Warren's Wisdom: Insights into Gang Narrative

Picture this: you're a newcomer in an unfamiliar environment, and your geographical origin dictates your affiliation. Will you succumb to the gang lifestyle that seems to be an inevitable part of this new world? That's the reality for many inside the American prison system, and we're here to unravel the intricate dynamics of this society. Join us, Remie and Warren, as we explore the tangled web of gang affiliations inside prison walls, shedding light on the often misunderstood world of the American prison system.

The quest for belonging, security and faith can lead people down pathways they never imagined, such as joining a gang. Imagine having a family that's not based on blood but on loyalty, camaraderie and mutual support. It's compelling, isn't it? The allure is hard to resist, and that's the grim reality for many. But why are some compelled to join? And why is it so difficult to leave? Tune in as we explore these questions, sharing insightful stories from our guest who's experienced these dynamics firsthand. 

What happens when our source of love and protection – our family – becomes intertwined with the world of gangs? It's a complex relationship, to say the least. We're going there, dissecting the tough dynamics between parents and their children when it comes to gang affiliations. Hear us discuss the importance of parental transparency and the power of open conversations about past mistakes. We promise, it's not a lecture, but a candid conversation about navigating family relationships in the midst of gang affiliations. Let's break the cycle together, one honest conversation at a time.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:19

Welcome to Lockdown the Legacy stories from the inside out. I'm your host, remy Jones.

Speaker 2: 0:25

And I'm co-host Debbie Jones. We are a husband and wife team here to bring you the real life stories, experiences and questions around the American criminal justice system. We do advise discretion with this podcast. I think we should put that out there first and foremost. Yes, we are going to talk about experiences that happen inside the prison system, outside of prison systems. We will use language that might be offensive, but we intend to keep it real. And if that's not for you, we totally understand, but please do what's best for your listening ears.

Speaker 1: 0:56

Oh, we're about to keep it real, son. Our goal of this podcast is to share the inside realities of the American prison and criminal justice system, from pre-charges all the way to post-release, from the voices of those who've experienced it firsthand, including me.

Speaker 2: 1:12

That's right, we're going to get you into it.

Speaker 3: 1:29

This is a prepaid debit call from war An inmate at the Graffin Correctional Institution. To accept this call, press zero to refuse this call. Hang up or press one To prevent calls from this. This call is from a DRC correctional facility and is subject to monitoring and recording. Utilization of an unapproved application and three-way calls to communicate are strictly prohibited and a violation of DRC policy. Thank you for using GTL. What's up, bro? What's going on bro? How are you.

Speaker 4: 2:23

I'm doing good man. What's going on with you up to? Oh? Not much man, just waiting on you. I'm here, I'm here. Glad you got to call with Christine. I thought I was calling you tonight. She's like oh, so you let him talk about.

Speaker 3: 2:32

I mean, you go on through your football time. I'm like he knows I do the football on a weekend but I told him I would call him.

Speaker 4: 2:51

I appreciate it, man. So I actually wanted to talk about gangs in prison and really, this gang.

Speaker 4: 3:00

Yeah, gangs, groups, whatever, but really like gangs in general, because I know that I came from a decent family and you came from a decent family, somehow we wound up in gangs. So I wanted to talk about how did this happen? Because I feel like it's a lot of people out there that either got kids trying to dabble or they're just curious. But you know, kind of on the same subject, is like when you in prison, anything like I don't care what it is, something is going to get you associated with some group and the majority of the time is where you from. So if you from Cleveland and you ain't in no gang years now because you just in the Cleveland gang, you know if you from Akron or if you from war, anything close to anywhere else, that's in a group.

Speaker 4: 3:52

Are you from war or you with the Akron dudes? You from, you know, you from Kent, or you with the Akron dudes, you from Cleveland, you from Columbus, you know. And then you got the out of towners, the New Yorks and the LA's and the yeah, and the VA's. You know, I was like I got tired. It was like six dudes in a block named J. I was like man, come on. So then this one dude just started calling me VA. I was like cool with it, right? So it's like like with me.

Speaker 4: 4:23

Was that?

Speaker 3: 4:25

Nothing with me was different. I said when I came in, you only had really three main games, games that had any credibility. You had the blood, you had the crypts and you had the GD. There was a sprinkle of a vice Lord here and there, but though they wasn't really relevant in any of the institutions I've been in.

Speaker 4: 4:51

But I was a vice Lord, and I don't think I've ever met a vice Lord in prison.

Speaker 3: 4:54

I Know I knew a couple of them, but it wasn't. It wasn't many of them Actually when I came to prison from war and so morning, young town kind of being moved together. But I Didn't really know anyone when I came to prison. But I had been in California and and my brother was a crypt and so I lived in Sacramento, california, and the way California is to me, california split. The more north you go you're gonna see a lot more red, the further south you go you're gonna see a lot more blue and I was in Sacramento which was primarily blood.

Speaker 3: 5:42

Even the school I would, they would. They would separate schools by what gang are you in Now? Do you still go? Have some gangs of different gangs in different cities schools? But like, I went to a school named Hiram Johnson, was primarily blood and I got into a whole bunch of fights there. So it took me out of that school to move me to a school named Luther Burbank and that was primarily crisp.

Speaker 3: 6:03

But when I came back to Ohio, everyone who I grew up with we didn't grow up around gangs like that, we grew up around neighborhood gangs. Right, you have to get old boys and the east side boys and the pH posse that you have. You have like City gangs. When I came back, gds were everywhere. All the guys I grew up with they were like all Gds and All my all the friends that I grew up in up, because I grew up on both sides of town east side, west side so the east side guys they were all Gds. But the west side guys, where I mainly lived most of my child, all them were bloods and I was a crib I'm like we saw be cool, but now we got separated.

Speaker 3: 6:43

So when I came to prison. That was the only association I had with anyone, because I didn't know anyone. Who's a Crips, and you know you. You go to the people who you're comfortable with, because the first you know when, anytime you go to a new prison, you're looking for a familiar face. That's the first thing you're gonna do. Who do I know? Who don't I know? Is there any enemies I need to worry about? Is there any someone that I can, you know, gravitate to? And if you don't have any of that, you normally gravitate. The people just came down with.

Speaker 4: 7:13

That's really who it is, though it's like it's not even really like. Who cannot trust is like who can I get some information from? You know that ain't gonna shake me while I'm trying to get that information, I'm not sure I'll say the wrong stuff. Oh yeah, where you from Good, you know I'm from. So what, what, what, what, oh shit, you know. So it's like you. You already know you got to end there. You go there and immediately get asked some questions or see what the lay of the land is, you know.

Speaker 3: 7:43

But we also know that it there was, there was a lot of guys who just like followers, you know, to be able to send a person on a mission they talk about. Yeah, I'm og this and I, you know, I've been here and down. They they're the way, they're the weakest people in the Hierarchy of gangs, but they are fine. Somebody can get under their wings, someone they can use and take advantage of and send on dummy missions and Make them feel like someone, and so that the gangs was also taken control of that way as well. But for them to just change now the whole aspect of gangs, and it's just different.

Speaker 4: 8:21

Yeah, I, I actually remember, man, like like when I first came in, you know, of course, I was like yo, same thing, let me find out who I can get some information from. So I went from prison and Akron to Going out to Toledo for my parent, right. So I'm like way out of my element. You know, I know Cleveland do like. You know I mean it is, but they all, they all scarce because I'm three hours away from home for them. So first thing I did was saw all the other Crips, what's up? Let me tell me what I know.

Speaker 4: 9:06

But um, it happened real quick, exactly what you said. I started realizing like y'all dudes ain't really organized, you ain't getting no money. You know, like really it all it is is some weak dude who happened to tell a good story and find himself in a position of authority all of a sudden, sending people on dummy missions and trying to put down power plays and Hold on this train coming by. Man, but it really made me mad real quick because they were getting away. If people, that was really trying to put down a hustle over the dumbest stuff.

Speaker 4: 9:44

Dude trying to like flirt with a CEO he ain't even knocking her off, but he mad, somebody trying to get a pack in or he trying to jack on the CEO or something like I'm trying to get real money, you trying to tug one off in the corner, you mad, and I'm talking to you. So that is actually what happened. That got me out of the gang because I was like plus, toledo was weird. When they come to games and how they map the city out, toledo weird. I can't even get it. I can't really even explain it. But like my dude L Is a Crip and his dad is brother blood, I was like what the fuck is going on in Toledo?

Speaker 3: 10:24

Yeah they got a lot of that like that in California you have family members living in the same house Representing two different things.

Speaker 4: 10:32

Yeah, I used to that at all. Like you know, growing up like down to Virginia stuff and even an Akron, it's like I Didn't met like my dude, adolfo, his, his whole family was gangsters. His grandma was against it. He was all Mexican, everybody was gangsta. What? No, all my go and tell your parents you gonna get jade out on the front porch. Don't bring that around here. Yeah, so I got to Toledo I was like, well, hi y'all, how you grow like was your dad in the household? I and understand, especially being like a father-son thing. How did you end up being a Different gang from your dad and your older brother in the same house? Not even?

Speaker 4: 11:19

a neighborhood gang like major game. But I grew up in one of the neighborhood gangs man and I ain't a lot. It was kind of worse than the, than a big name gang's for.

Speaker 3: 11:33

Yeah, well, it definitely was, and I could say like when I was growing up.

Speaker 2: 11:37

I wasn't in any of that I was.

Speaker 3: 11:38

Just I could say I was one of the ones. I was just cool with people Gang like didn't enter my life until I went to California. And when I went to California, my brother and everyone that he was associated with were Crips and Even though I was living in a blood neighborhood, I Was around my brother in him. So it was. It was evident what I was going to be, so it could not be no pussy or anything like that, because I'm in a. This is what I am. So I had to fight.

Speaker 3: 12:08

I got to the school I went to was primarily all bloods it was. It was three main bloods that's around this school that I went to and Me and maybe a handful of guys were Crips. But we still went to school wearing our blue flag. We still went to school wearing all blue. And, yeah, I got a big fight in there. The last, the last, the last time I got in a fight.

Speaker 3: 12:34

It was a big fight and I got Molly walked and they was like what are you even doing going to this tool? And I'm like, should I live around there, around there on a cam circle? And they said, okay, we about to transfer you because you shouldn't even be in this school because you just you just getting into it too much and that's when they sent me to a school called Luther. Burbank was all first, primarily Crips. Like I said that, when I came back here and I came to prison, no one I hung around with came to prison. I was the only one came back, became the prison. There's a couple guys I knew from Warren but it wasn't that many of them around where I was at and the ones that I grew up with they were all bloods.

Speaker 4: 13:13

I said that's kind of the same issue I had, cuz, like you know, I was mostly surrounded by gang stuff up here in Ohio. When I went back down to Virginia again, it was like my dad lived in the suburbs but, right, the school and the fire department divided the suburbs from the hood and that hood was all blood Right. So, yeah, we had, we had Crips at our school, but they was from like a little further away. So, being that I was always around that up here I ain't want to hang out with no bloods and stuff, even though, like some of these dudes, I played on the basketball team. When I play, you know, I would still go like further across town to hang out in the crib neighborhoods and stuff. And One time somebody tried to call me out on that too.

Speaker 4: 13:59

It was at a football game and it did not end well, man, I end up. I'm serious, man, I end up actually. So a dude ended up backing me up about it and Later on after the game they tried to jump him dude and pulling out a pistol and everything it was. It was crazy, it was ugly, but From then on it was just like he knew like I'm gonna look out for you, cuz I, you know I see what they trying to do and and for real, it was like I ain't even got no official status in this, you know Right. But now I'm like in it, you know. It is like alright, will you come hang out over here whenever you want? You come hang out Next? You know I'm meeting people, I'm, you know, hey, come on, we about to ride like oh shit, yeah, and I mean just snowboard, for real, just kind of like one thing after another to the point where it's like I mean basically like you don't prove yourself. No, you know you wrote with this, you did that. I don't backdo it up at the football game, like one thing after another.

Speaker 4: 15:02

But the thing that really kind of I wanted to talk about is like what appeal does gangs have? When you come from, you know, pretty much decent or good family, you know. And for me it was that I had a lot of trouble at home. I had a lot of like I felt alienated in my own household. You know. You know my dad was real strict. You know I didn't really get along with my, my dad or my stepmom, so anything I could do to get out of the house, you know I was like plus. I had a little resentment that I lived in the suburbs in the first place because I'm from the hood and everybody tried to tell me like the hood was a bad thing. So I was like, man, fuck it, I'm going out here, you know, get my.

Speaker 4: 15:47

And then, on top of that, anytime I got in trouble and I felt like it was for something I didn't do. I would go out and get in trouble so I could feel justified about it. And then, you know, shit, one thing led to another and now you playing in the big boy world. You know we ain't told about middle school, no more. You know we get in the high school. You get in, you know early adulthood and you know carrying the gun is a normal normality. And you know it's easy for one thing to turn into another thing, even when you don't expect it, or to just be like fuck it. I got to back him up because this one dude, you know.

Speaker 3: 16:29

Yeah, I believe I was. I was talking to Christine about this the other day. I believe people in general, we, we live our life in a place of a deficit Because at a certain time in our life we went from us being the center of the world, us being the center of attention, and people going out their way to do and give to us, to people, start making us secondary and taken from us. When we start experiencing traumas and pains and hurts and disappointments and betrayals, these things start taking things from us and nothing was replenishing. And so, by time we hit our teenage year, emotionally, spiritually, socially, we're in a deficit and we're constantly trying to do things to add value back to us. Some of us do it through sex, some of us do it through physical violence, some of us do it through positive achievements.

Speaker 3: 17:31

But those of us who already had our value taken away from us, our idea that we could be better, we do it through belonging, and the gangs is the easiest thing to belong to. It's like prison. There's very few people. That's going to turn you enough as being a gang member. They will always find a usefulness of you and you know, you know being in prison even though we say we have family. Our family is mainly there as a convenience for us, because the individuals who we hang around with 24 hours a day, who we go through our disappointments with, where we go through loss and we talk about it and we go through our ups and downs with our girls and missing our children and just living years and years of our life with those, are the ones who become our family. We're eating together, fighting together, crying together, going through hard times. They become our family and although we love our family, they don't equate to the everyday, day in, day out, going on to our lives the way individuals in here do.

Speaker 3: 18:35

Yeah, I mean even out here, though you can't be at the level of a loyalty and affection for people here, then out there, even if they're gang members.

Speaker 4: 18:44

So I try to explain that to somebody because they were asking me like why is it so hard to leave a gang, or why do people go to gangs in the first place, knowing it's bad, right? And I explain kind of the same way. It's like Usually you search out a game because of something happening at home. You know whether it's good or bad, whether it's just you're not getting attention, your parents working too much, or you know you having some trouble at home or whatever. Usually that's why you end up seeking out that love or affection elsewhere. You know that deficit, um, and then everybody wants security, right? I mean, that's the whole reason why these games was formed in the first place. It's like you know, you always got somebody that's gonna back you up, whether you right or wrong. Anybody asking questions, man, that's my homie. They come in the back for you.

Speaker 4: 19:38

And Even though I had stable household, being in the gang and being in the hood hanging out, I saw that it was really nothing that you could lack when you was in the game, like, oh, your people kicks you out. Oh, you always got a place to go. Oh, you ain't eating. You always got a place to go. You know. Oh, you broke, you always got a place to go, like it wasn't really nothing that I couldn't go to him for, and they like ain't nobody, even if they gave you a hard time Joke a little bit, laugh at you. It was like now, let's go get it. Oh, somebody, somebody starting shit, oh, let's go handle it. Like it was never a thing where I didn't feel the security factor, you know Right. And so that's why I always say, like when you ask somebody, what, why is it so hard to leave a gang? It's like because this is security, especially when it's Somebody foreign. When you got the school guidance counselor coming trying to help you, you like bitch, you don't know nothing about my struggle.

Speaker 4: 20:43

And I have the stuff you're telling me to do this brand new. Go, get me beat the fuck up.

Speaker 3: 20:50

And again, I can't. I can't speak for women, but I'll speak for man, because that's what I am. But a lot of people don't understand about men is that Women women, in my opinion when they get with, they get involved with something. They're looking for that security, that, that idea that I'm safe here. Men look for security, but we look for it in different ways and this is the reason why the gangs, in my opinion, is so enticing. We look for security in the form of belief. We want someone to believe in us. We want someone that you said, that blind loyalty, like I don't care whether he was wrong, I don't care if he took everything from you, I don't care if you smack your mom, you ain't gonna touch him, because if you touch him then you gonna touch me, mean you, we go, we go and get it on. So we, you always have someone and with this higher sense of in my eyes, you can do no wrong.

Speaker 3: 21:50

And and that, that belief, that's what us men seek for. We seek for women, we seek forward and the things in which we're doing it as far as accomplishment in our another life, we figure in our children. We need people to believe in us or we have a dream, we have a want, we have a desire, we have an ideal of ourselves. We need people to believe in that. And if a person doesn't give us that belief and you give us doubt, you give us question, then it diminishes which you are in our lives.

Speaker 3: 22:22

And With the gang's, do the gang say not only do we believe in you, but once you're, once you're one of us, then we have your back to prove it. You always like to fight. That's not that they have you, they like to fight. And that's how they go. What should we do was fighting back to back, you know, every time they came. No, he and that thing. He believed in me enough to put his life in jeopardy, and that that makes you loyal to them. Beyond the concept of right and wrong. Yeah, right or wrong does not have a factor.

Speaker 4: 22:57

At that point I Mean, even even in fighting, because you know, fighting in the hood, especially in the younger years, it's always a lot of uncertainty. You ain't got a lot of confidence in yourself yet. You know, and I remember getting out there and getting the fight with dude. It was one of them long drawing out fights, man, you know, I'm serious, it was one of them long ones where you know at the end of y'all just hugging. So what you done, you do.

Speaker 4: 23:24

But I remember hanging out man, and this is I had just come back from Virginia. I'm up here, man, and I'm hanging out with the homies. Man, dude, come around and he walking through the hood and I ain't gonna lie, I front now like I ain't even seen cuz, for real, I Still had that fight fresh in my head. So I'm like man, I hope this nigga don't start. No shit, I'm serious. And dude, come over and flex. Man. He flex and he asked one of my dudes like man, well, y'all hanging with this nigga man, I whooped his ass the other day, he weak, and I was like man, yeah right, man, you ain't whooped nothing over here. And Everything stopped. Everything stopped. Man. It was like me, I don't go if I don't want to hear no details about the fight, nothing. But I was like he's, like you have one minute remaining.

Speaker 4: 24:15

He is like for you, get it respect around here. You will never let a man say whooped your ass right here in front of you. And so, right there, like I don't even think dude wanted to fight, I don't think he knew it was gonna go there. But all of a sudden everybody was like alright, nigga, we about to fight. Like shit if you whooped him whooping again. And I'm like, fuck, yeah, but we fought.

Speaker 4: 24:35

I got out on him too, and it was like, man, I don't come around here no more. You know, yeah, and that that taught me a lot, man. It taught me a lot, whether I don't know whether it was good or bad, I can't say I'm heavily biased, but it taught me a lot about life. Moving on, you know, I was like you could do whatever you want, but you ain't just gonna say you did it. You have to show everybody you know your resume. Don't speak nothing, yeah. And so that was like a big learning moment for me, man, you know.

Speaker 4: 25:06

Another thing I wanted to say, though, was that, um, it taught me a lot about unity and loyalty and, like you said, like you looking for that validation, that, um, you know you want somebody to believe in you, because after that, bro, that's all people talked about. You know, they they hype. They was like all of them was my hype man like, oh man, he just put this work in, he just did it. I was like trying to be humble about it you know that that wasn't even my personality back then, to be like bragging and boasting and stuff. So it kind of really solidified, pulled me even further in like, hey man, these dudes really, uh, you know, feel some kind of way about me. That's what's up.

Speaker 3: 25:49

And and what I was gonna say is if at a young age I say in our, in our teens and twenties we're still trying to prove ourselves to the world, and Physical violence is one of the quick way to prove yourself, to say I'm not someone to mess with, and so the gang, the gang gives you an an avenue to prove yourself. But as you become older and you don't need that to prove yourself, you can prove yourself by your character, you can prove yourself by your integrity and different things like that the gang started, started stop losing this appeal Because now that the things that is demanded of you and requiring of you, people want to pay that cost anymore and that's what it does. But not until that happens, because it doesn't happen. Just because you get older, it happens, because you're mature. When that happens, that doesn't happen.

Speaker 3: 26:48

I know 56 euro gang members, completely comfortable, still talking about what's up cuz and gang banging and doing all that. I'm a shot caller and doing I. They're still there, they're still invested into that whole belief because that's what their identity is. And I remember when I was a guy that, um, I was bangin with Lucasville and he had got out and came back and I ran into him at Ross and when, when he saw me.

Speaker 3: 27:18

He's like, oh, what's up cut. You know he's trying to give me a, give me a shake, and I'm like I don't do that anymore. He said what I'm like? Yeah, I thought I'm, I'll get down like that anymore. And he was just sitting there dumbfounded, and I was walking away.

Speaker 3: 27:35

I can hear him saying to people like fucking me, he ain't doing that, no more. You know getting out. And so I saw him again and he was talking to me like no, we know what happened, with which you mean you, you, you already know what this is. And I tried to explain it to him and what he told me said well, cuz you already know what you got coming. And I told him I said, listen, you gotta do what you gotta do, but at the end they ain't gonna change my decision. And so you know I respect you. You got to do what you do, but at the end of the day, I'm not changing my mind. This, I'm not in that anymore.

Speaker 3: 28:11

And he says, because he had love for me, that he gave me a bad cuz, this was a big deal. There was no way I was gonna look at you know, I clearly know my limitations. There was no way possible this deal with smashing individuals. But I have made up my mind and once I make up my mind, the thought of physical Violence is not gonna change my mind. And he gave me a pass. He was in there by don't like no, he ain't in it anymore. You know, I gave him a pass and all the other stuff like that. But once you get that maturity, that that sense of belonging doesn't come through that anymore, that's as approving yourself doesn't come to that anymore. And I have. I've been growing ever since some people never get to that point yeah, I mean, for me it was something like a.

Speaker 4: 28:58

It was actually the same thing that Attracted me to it, that kind of turned me off from it later down the road because After that one fight I just told you about, from there and on it was like, oh man, I'm gonna go get my little homie, let him handle it, you know, and I love that. I was like, hey, I'm the one they call, yeah, I take his work, you know right. And then all of a sudden it was like, wait a minute, man. When last time you put some work in, right, what? The last time I see you throw hands at all this year, bro, what's going on, you know right. So now I started looking at people funny, like and and it wasn't just the one dude is like, oh, hey, hey, we got this going on, we need you, and I ain't, I ain't ever gonna be like I was the most daily motherfucker with my hands or nothing like that, nowhere near close. It was some fights where I was like, man, don't call me on this bullshit, no, yeah. And it was some fights that I had to. You know, it was follow-up instances where the niggas weren't even around and I'm I'm still fighting, because I done got injected into it.

Speaker 4: 30:09

So eventually I started questioning like man, hold on. Like I started asking questions when I showed up. But you know, ain't never a good thing. Like hold on, hold on, what do you do? Like it don't even matter what he did, like no, no, no what you do. So I started thinking, like me, I made it, maybe I should, I should calm down on this. This probably ain't what I'm man for, especially once I got to Toledo because I told you I was like I start questioning a whole bunch of stuff. Like right, like bro, you know, we don't even operate like that how he getting away with x, y and z, you know. So I just, I actually, um, I don't know, that's a long story. I actually ended up standing up on some stuff and it almost didn't end well, but I can't be named dropping this stuff. But it was some two guys specifically that stood up for me and I ended up just kind of walking away, but it was about to get ugly.

Speaker 4: 31:13

And then, of course, the same thing that happened out in the streets happened in prison. I was like you know, I'll go from this prison to another prison all the way across the state and here I only got one or two people that know me. Like, all right, yeah, I'm gonna just fade into the background and eventually I just changed it all the way up and I start playing Dungeons and Dragons and shit.

Speaker 3: 31:34

Yeah. So I think one of the things that individuals can know about that their family member is in the game. I think one of them is it's hard, especially from a parent's perspective, and you and I were kind of talking about this yesterday that something that you just have to accept and when I say accept, I'm not saying that you have to agree with it. Acceptance simply means that you accept that this is the person's choice that they're making in their life, because this is the only thing they think they can make. They think it's the only thing that they can make. There's only choice that they have for their own survival, for whatever reason they believe. That that's what they believe, and only thing you can do is just be ready for them when they change their mind. Hopefully they survive it, but there's nothing you can do at that moment when you're in it, because most individuals and gangs they're more loyal to the gang than they are to their family, because they feel that the gang is their family.

Speaker 3: 32:44

So we'll say the gang I think that's something else that needs to be understood is not the gang in general. It's people.

Speaker 3: 32:54

They have relationships with individuals who happen to share the same belief, because they may not like everyone in the gang but they were like this is my partner and because he's involved, I'm involved, and because I'm involved, he's involved, and so these individuals, they're loyal to them and so I mean, I think that's one of the hardest things to do as a parent or a family member see a person doing something that can hurt them, and you just have to accept it and be ready when they change their mind.

Speaker 4: 33:30

So I wanna further that comment there because you're right, it's something that you can't just pull somebody out of, because the more you pull, the more they gonna go back. You kinda just gotta one. You can't just cut something off without giving a good replacement. So it's kinda like smoking you wanna give up smoking? What good habit are you gonna replace it with?

Speaker 4: 33:58

And I like to challenge everybody because I always say this I like that you said gangs are people and they're relationships. Because absolutely, when people think of gangs, they think of gang as, like this mythical thing, when really it's just a group of people and relationships that are interconnected. But to further humanize this group, think of gangs as the way you would think of anything else. Because I always say, like the police are the biggest gang in America, the military are the biggest gang in America, like you can't have anything of that sort without having a deep pride for the group, a deep connection to the people inside of it and some type of defensive mechanism. You were just talking about the Browns. Somebody bring up the Browns in a negative way. You're like whoa, whoa, hold on. Somebody bring up Michigan. You're like hold on, hold on, but see if you ever see Columbus after an OSU Michigan game and Ohio State lost.

Speaker 4: 35:10

You can't tell me like gang mentality is something that's just for thugs and criminals, because you'd be like man. Why is all these fucking college students burning shit and flipping cars? And then the same thing like when you talk about police. Like police give you the same type of security that a gang does. A cop do something dirty, everybody in the motherfucking police department gonna cover that shit up. They gonna show up and give them the highest motherfucking salute. When it's his funeral, they gonna all show up in court dressed up to defend him. If it go that far, like if a motherfucking assault an officer, shooting officer, they gonna put a hit out on his ass. You can't tell me that being in a gang is something that's so evil when it's the same exact rules of operation and engagement as all these other things that we salute and give honor.

Speaker 3: 36:08

So that's what people have to learn how to accept that this is just their choice.

Speaker 4: 36:13

The choices aren't always for the best.

Speaker 3: 36:16

It's not always gonna end for the best, but it's their choice. And I remember I was talking to my sister one day and she was telling me about her daughter and she was saying she was like you know, Warren, I told her everything, I tried to school her, I tried to keep it away from her, I did everything I can possibly can to steer this girl right. And she said I just have to accept that she's gonna be out there. I hope she make it back. If she make it back, I'm gonna be proud of her and I will give her everything she can. She said but I have to come to terms that she wants to be out there and I have to accept that. And that was.

Speaker 3: 36:54

That was hard for a parent, because it's almost I think it's almost instinctual for you to want to protect your child. Even if they're grown people, you still want to protect them. You still want them to make decisions that's gonna be beneficial to them, decisions that's going to keep them safe and make them grow better as people. And the reality is children don't think that way. Children think in a way that I'm just doing what I want to do, to have my fun and enjoy myself. But also some people have a deep sense of royalty to people who are there for them. That's what they say gangs, isn't it? Isn't something ambiguous or just this monolithic thing? It is the relationship that they're having with another individual to share the same belief as them, and so they're having this history with these people.

Speaker 3: 37:45

Like you say, if my mother kicked me out the house, they said me and gave me a place to stay. When I was getting jumped to school and people was bullied me, he was there fighting back to back with me. When I didn't have any money, he was putting money in my pocket. They would teach me how to hustle. They taught me this. They embraced me and accepted me for who I am right or wrong.

Speaker 3: 38:05

That is a hard, intoxicating thing to just separate yourself from simply because people say they're not good people. You don't even know these people, and so to accept it is saying I'm willing to learn and try to understand where you are coming from, from your perspective and how you came to this choice. Now I don't agree with it, but I can understand it from your perception and I hope you make it back, because when you want to come back this way I got you, I got you. I'm gonna believe in you as much as they believe in you. I'm gonna have your back just as much as they have your back, but I'm not gonna sanction wrong.

Speaker 4: 38:44

Right.

Speaker 3: 38:45

So when you ready to come this way, you ready to get away from that, you ready to walk a different way, I'm always gonna be available to you, but don't wash your hands of them, because that's your strength and the gangs hold on them.

Speaker 4: 38:56

Right, that's what it is, especially when it comes to parents. I think that for me myself, one thing I never want to do is hide my past from my kids or anybody else like my younger, my nephews and stuff my nieces. I always tell everybody exactly what happened to me. Five years ago I was in a motherfucking can. I lived in a half bathroom. That's how I describe it.

Speaker 4: 39:24

I don't want them to think that anything that they're doing out there is something that I don't understand. Right, because that's the first thing they say. You don't understand, because they automatically think you're judging them, saying it's wrong and you don't got no understanding of it. So I want all the parents you didn't been around, you didn't been out there smoking weed, skip school, all that shit, but your kids don't know about that. We try to hide that from kids. You know, yeah, when really it's a big, powerful thing to relate to them Like man listen, man, when I was 15 and I was at this party and this happened, you know. So now you prove that you have the experience to back up why you're telling them not to go down this road instead of being like I don't like them boys you hang out with. You know, you know.

Speaker 3: 40:18

But in addition to that, one of the things that I as a child I never thought that I had the capability of hurting my parents. I knew I hurt them, but in my mind when I did things I'm like well, I wasn't doing it to hurt you, so if you got hurt, that wasn't my fault. It was your fault. You got hurt.

Speaker 3: 40:42

Children don't really see their parents as people. They don't. They don't look at them the same way they look at their friends. They don't look at them the same way they look at other people's whose opinion matter to them, and that's because they their parents always seem lost to them. One of the greatest relationships I have is with my mother, and we didn't always have the greatest relationship, but what's been made me in my mother's relationship so great is I can tell my mother anything. She's going to question me about it. She's going to ask me certain things. I know that's coming, but at the end of the day, she respects that. It is my choice what I choose to do, and she'll tell me I don't agree with it. But it's your life, your choice, and if that's what you want to do, just make sure you understand everything that's going to come with that.

Speaker 3: 41:35

And it took a while before I realized that I had the capability of hurting this woman by my actions. It took a while for me to grasp when I told my father you know you failed me as a father and you wasn't there for me. You know you didn't do. I'm saying all these things just to vent, but I don't know that's tearing him up because he wanted to believe like I did my best as a father. I didn't always do right, but I did my best. But I'm thinking like, well, you should have been perfect, your best should have been perfect.

Speaker 3: 42:07

And so I think by what you're saying is, are you being more open with your children about some of your past again when they're an appropriate age? Not at any age, but I think when you're an appropriate age you don't have to be so I did everything right or you know I did some wrong thing. Be honest about it, because it humanizes you, and the more a person understands you're human, the less they're going to feel like you don't understand me as a parent, because parents aren't human anymore. They become this other thing, this alien thing that has no feeling, has no understanding. You was born old and I were born young, so you don't know what it feels like to be this way, but I think that's important too, just to let them know that you are human. You can hurt me.

Speaker 3: 42:52

You are capable of hurting me.

Speaker 4: 42:54

As a kid I know the only thing that my parents told me that even made me know that they was ever young is they be like you are, like I want never your age and I ain't get away with that.

Speaker 4: 43:07

That ain't telling me nothing, yeah not but you know, when I actually got to be like a teenager, when I got to be like an older teenager, like 17, 18, 19, was when, especially, my dad was start pulling me aside and telling me these stories of when he was young. I was like, damn, for real, I couldn't even imagine it like my dad being in high school, middle school, doing all this stuff. I'm like what? Yeah, it started making me look at him different. Now, we still didn't have a good relationship at that time. We really started having a good relationship until I was in prison and actually it's crazy how many parallels it is.

Speaker 4: 43:50

I actually took that same approach and said some pretty mean things to my dad man and he came to visit me one day and he tried to tell me like, basically, like, boy, you know, I raise you better, don't be doing that. And I cut him off like, hey, listen, like if you're going to keep coming to see me, we're going to have a relationship is to grown man, you know, not as a father and a son. And when I said that I gave myself big ups. You know I was giving myself a pat on the back Like, yeah, I handled that, you know. But you're right, I ain't think of how that should probably tore my dad down, man.

Speaker 3: 44:25

Yeah, because my mother was like that, so I I do. My mother didn't make a lot of good decisions, for, as far as I'm concerned, as I was growing up and I would go that in her face every opportunity I got when she would say something where you wasn't. You didn't raise me. My father raised me, oh, and she would say you know what? I'm trying to help you. Well, where was you at when I was younger? Why wouldn't you help me then?

Speaker 3: 44:50

And I remember one time I did that and she was like listen, you and I going to get all of this out right now. And she said after this conversation, we're going to have an account. She said you ain't going to keep holding this over my head. So if you want to have a car relationship with me, then we will have a conversation. You say everything you need to say.

Speaker 3: 45:09

And she said but understand, bullets fire both ways. I mean guns fire both ways, because when you have some things that I disappointed you in, but you also have some things you disappointed me in, she said but after this conversation, if you can't move past that, she said well, then you go ahead and do what you do and I'll do what I do? She said I want to have a relationship with you. She said but you ain't going to keep holding my past over my head and me and her had like a three hour conversation I'm yelling at her, she yelling at me, I'm crying, she crying. But after that conversation was all that stuff was out. I had to make a decision and I decided I wanted to have a relationship with my mother and our relationship in great ever since being. But some of the things she was saying, like when my brother.

Speaker 3: 45:51

Jimmy died and then I came to jail. She said how do you think that made me feel as a mother? So you never thought about that. She said I'm always feeling like I never should let you go back to Ohio. You know I never should. I should have did this. I'm always second guessing about what I could have did to possibly save your life. And I had to tell her, like mom, there was nothing you could have did. I was already gone, I was so far gone at that time. Nothing that you could have said, nothing you could have did, could have saved me from that moment, because I was too far gone, I was too hurt, I was too angry, I was just, I was destructive, I was dangerous and there was nothing you could have did.

Speaker 3: 46:30

And she said I understand it. She said but you don't understand it from a mother's perspective because it's always my fault and I never even thought about that, that never even crossed my mind, that I'm, that she took the full brunt of me coming to prison as her fault, and that's that's when my mentality starts. It was, it was tweaked. It didn't change because that didn't happen years later, but it just it just something happened that took years and years for it to mature. But kids don't look at their parents that way, and sometimes the parents need to help us understand them from their perspective, not as a way of judgment, but a way of sharing information with us so we can understand that you're human.

Speaker 4: 47:17

I do got something else though I wanted to talk about. We probably don't have enough time for it, but I kind of wanted to talk about like gang, not really culture, but like operations on the inside, Kind of like what's some stuff that's like gang related on the inside that affects everybody. You know, like I know you all got a tablet now so y'all can make your own calls, but it used to be like one phone was like for a specific gang. You know.

Speaker 3: 47:45

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 47:46

So I was.

Speaker 3: 47:47

I was trying to huh. The gangs really don't control any. I don't really know because I'm not in high security anymore. So the one phone thing that that operate in high security.

Speaker 4: 47:57

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 47:59

You, but a lot of things in the lower security prisons. They're just, they're. It's not as aggressive as in those other camps, those other prisons. It's not as aggressive here, nowhere near aggressive here, as it is in those prisons.

Speaker 4: 48:14

Well, I told you, like Like gang gang, gang, gang, gang gang, you know the gambling, the drug.

Speaker 3: 48:18

You know, you knew certain individuals, whether it was babies or um heart, and the fellas or Crips or Bloods. You already knew these individuals had their hand in something Um, for here, you don't, you don't, you don't really have that here.

Speaker 4: 48:36

Man, I told you, uh, when I got there from dropping out from level three, it was like culture shock. How many dudes I seen like playing cards gambling at the table. They ain't got the money, they gambling on credit. They got on flip flops and headphones and, yep, I was like what, where the fuck am I at, man? Yeah, everybody talking on the phone with their head all curled up in the phone booth and stuff. I'm like man, you know, as soon as I got on the phone I put the back to the wall, leaned up on top of the phone booth, like, uh, I don't know what's going on.

Speaker 3: 49:13

Well, in addition to that, everyone, everyone was aggressive man and, in higher security, everyone's not aggressive, because aggressive means that you want to do something and everyone didn't want to do something. We're here, everyone, talk loud, right.

Speaker 2: 49:26

Now it kind of surprised me.

Speaker 3: 49:28

Even with getting in a fight, I mean they would be like I mean getting it in and you come up and no one has a scratch on them. How does that happen? They're like yo, it's tearing it up in there and you come out and you both look like y'all been in there kissing that was crazy.

Speaker 3: 49:45

So the gangs really don't have a big influence down here. People just like saying I'm this, I'm that, what's up, blood, what's up, cause you know they still go through the motion, but they ain't no gang banging down here. I mean, it went hard when they found out the first hardest fella was about to come here. They made it seem like Lucifer was coming to the camp. Oh oh, the hardest fella's coming down here. Oh oh, put the lanterns in the window. Two foot by road and two by one by sea. I mean it was going to be a whole little thing about them coming down here and I was like it's a gang, I mean. And when they came down here they was all ones that was a little bit rowdy, they rode with them out and the ones that were soft they kept them here. So the gangs gangs really don't have a big impact in prisons like these level one prisons. The main thing here is drugs. Drugs are just crazy here.

Speaker 4: 50:39

Well, see, that's one of the things from like being in level three, I never been hired in a level three, I never been hired in close max. So that's my experience. They're extending my experience but I know, like you had to go to the ABS for certain stuff, you had to go to, you know, crips or Bluzz or folks or something you know, for certain stuff or fellas, and we ain't really so much have, I mean, a certain blocks, but really we ain't really so much have like phones controlled and stuff. But on the wreck yard you definitely had the basketball courts controlled or the softball field or something like you couldn't just walk on them like I got next. You know like no, you know we're out here, bro, who's you? You got to go over that court over there. So I don't I just said that because I don't really think that the average person knows like you know that that prison fence is like a black hole, like we'd like it's something in there and we can. We hear stories but we don't really know. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 51:47

It's a lot they don't know and I think probably part of that is because of their ignorance. I think a lot of it is from ours. When men get out of prison, they don't want to talk about being in prison and if they do talk about prison, they want to exaggerate, to scare you, to make a sense like I didn't get through some war and therefore you should fear me or you should think that I'll have accomplished some great feat. We're not just honest and just be truthful and open about our experience and I don't know whether that's a fear or shame or I don't, I don't know what drives that mentality to keep us closed-minded or exaggerating, closed-mouthed or talking through exaggeration, but we're just not truthful about what goes on in prison and we're upset when people don't understand or people taking all of their references of stuff they see off a TV. But we need to make people aware and I can say what you're doing is great because I think between the both of us, people are able to get a better and clearer version of what goes on in here.

Speaker 3: 52:50

And it's not all bad. But it's not all good either Because at the end of the day we're still people and that's why I always tell people in here, like, why are you all so afraid to go back out into society when the only thing in society is people? It's the only thing out there. It's a lot of things are a lot different and technology is different and all that stuff you can learn and ultimately, all of your successes, failures, conflicts and pleasure is going to come by your interacting with people. So learn to understand people and your transition will be a lot easier.

Speaker 4: 53:28

You know I said earlier that a lot of these other organizations are just like gangs, right, and it's the same for like being in prison. You go to prison. I mean it's a little different, of course, because you know there's always that aggressive threat factor, you know. But when you get out, if you can learn how to master the skill that you learned in prison all those years, then you can be successful, because people interaction, socializing, is something that can get you far.

Speaker 3: 54:00

You have one minute remaining.

Speaker 4: 54:04

I mean in prison. The one thing that can get you anything is knowing the right person, right, Yep, you hear somebody needs something. You're like, oh, I know somebody, don't stay right here, I'll be back and you plug them in and you be the middleman and then they're going to raise somebody else and now you, like, you're the most valuable player. It's the same thing out here. If you know somebody and you know how to play not really play a person, but show your value to that person. You know to the point where they can show somebody else that you have value. All of a sudden, man, doors be opening up. What's up the phone about the end? Oh yeah, my bad, go ahead, man.

Speaker 3: 54:46

I understand. I love you, bro.

Speaker 4: 54:50

Be good, and we're talking about it All right, man Love you bro, Be safe All right bro, bye, bye.

Speaker 2: 55:03

The Lockdown to Legacy podcast is proud to be a part of the Buzzsprout podcast community network. Lockdown to Legacy is recorded at Kohatch in their lovely audio file room. Thanks for your scholarship. Audio engineering is done by our very own Remy Jones. You can reach us with any feedback, questions, comments or share the love by emailing stories at lockdown, the number two legacycom. Stories at lockdown to legacycom. You can reach out there too for a free sticker, and you can find us on Instagram and Twitter with the handle at lockdown to legacy and on Facebook at the lockdown to legacy podcast. Thanks for listening.