Warren’s Wisdom: Keeping Order

What if you had a front-row seat to the stark realities of the American prison system? That's exactly what we offer you in this insightful episode of Lockdown the Legacy. We, your hosts Remie and Warren, pull back the curtains on the seldom discussed aspects of life behind bars, as we passionately share candid experiences, provocatively challenge your preconceived notions, and raise powerful questions about the justice system.

Our episode takes you deep into the world of the incarcerated. We analyze the valuable initiatives of programs like Oberlin College's, which affords inmates a chance to mingle with those outside their confined reality, thereby fostering a semblance of normalcy. We unravel the profound impact of institutionalization and the integral role of reputation within the correctional system. We lay bare the strategies inmates employ to steer through prison life, and candidly discuss the ethics of 'wrongdoing,' the unspoken codes among inmates, and the often-overlooked value of emotional maturity.

Transcript

Remie: 0:19

Welcome to Lockdown the Legacy stories from the inside out. I'm your host, remy Jones.

DJ: 0:25

And I'm co-host Debbie Jones. We are a husband and wife team here to bring you the real life stories, experiences and questions around the American criminal justice system. We do advise discretion with this podcast. I think we should put that out there first and foremost. Yes, we are going to talk about experiences that happen inside the prison system, outside of prison systems. We will use language that might be offensive, but we intend to keep it real. And if that's not for you, we totally understand, but please do what's best for your listening ears.

Remie: 0:56

Oh, we're about to keep it real, son. Our goal of this podcast is to share the inside realities of the American prison and criminal justice system, from precharges all the way to post-release, from the voices of those who've experienced it firsthand, including me.

DJ: 1:12

That's right, let's get into it.

Warren: 1:36

This is a prepaid debit call from an inmate at the Grafton Correctional Institution. To accept this call, press zero To refuse this call. Hang up or press one To prevent calls from this.

DJ: 1:55

this call is from a DRC correctional facility and is subject to monitoring and recording. Utilization of an unapproved application and three-way calls to communicate are strictly prohibited and a violation of DRC policy. Thank you for using GTL.

Warren: 2:08

Thank you for using GTL what up.

Warren: 2:12

What's up, man? How are you?

Warren: 2:13

I'm doing good man. What's up with you?

Warren: 2:17

Ah, man, I got no complaints. Man. No complaints at all, Not a single one. Well, you know, I'm known for complaining, but I feel like it don't give me nowhere, man.

Warren: 2:29

But you're the crazy part about it. I was just talking the other day because they just approved us to having living essential items, the items that they're about to let us have. They're not about to let us have a 24-inch television, a mattress, memory foam, topper, electric toothbrush, a water pig, a coffee pot and some sheets, something like that. So I was talking to a friend of mine and I was asking him. I said this is supposed to be a normalcy block and so they're trying to do things that or give us things that make us feel more normal. And I said where does the line between normalcy and being comfortable, where is that line at? And I was talking about it while, but then I felt like I was getting a little whiny and so I said you know what? I don't even mean to complain.

Warren: 3:26

And he told me something. You know what? I'm going to use that one. He said you're not complaining. Your voice is a concern, he said complaining is when you're just griping about something that has no validity or no point, he said. But showing the concern says that this is the issue that, if not checked or not addressed, can potentially become a problem later on down the line. And he said which you sound like he said. You just sound like you're concerned because all of these things that they're getting is just aesthetic stuff, is not making you normal, it's not changing the way you think, is not helping you become a better person or making you become more accustomed to everything that's out there, because there's so many of us without a touch with what's happening out there, because we've been gone so long that an electric toothbrush or mattress comforter is not going to get us any closer to knowing that's the leisure concerns.

Warren: 4:23

That's the leisure concerns.

Warren: 4:25

It's the leisure concerns, right? So yeah, so you may not be complaining, you might be voice of the concern.

Warren: 4:32

All right, I was just talking with somebody man, I don't even remember where it was, it was probably on this podcast, but I was talking about, basically, like the number one thing that you need is probably the most necessary but you can't possibly get while you're in prison, or it's very rare that you can get. It is exposure to people who are free, because it's very frowned upon to get close to people in prison, whether it's program directors or aides or COs or anything like that. You can't shake nobody's hand. You can't get too close to a female.

Warren: 5:17

I'm just trying to have a conversation, but it keeps you in that I'm an inmate mindset. And then it don't matter if you do programs, go to college, get a trade or be an enormously lucky buck, if, when you come home, as soon as you're around people, you like freak the fuck out. Yeah, you know, and I feel like that's the one thing that they need to better prepare you for is to be in Society, to be around people, especially the artist groups of people, because you know, in prison it's like keep you back to the wall.

Warren: 5:56

Right. So, I mean, it's a group to come here.

Warren: 6:01

Oh, go ahead, I need a good, I thought you're finished. I was, I was done, go ahead.

Warren: 6:06

There's. There's a group to come in From Oberlin College and opening college been coming and they've been bringing students and professors in here for years. I might even think when you was here over there was coming in.

Warren: 6:17

Oh yeah, that's that's why I said it's rare, because I do know that people that be in them programs get to like kind of mingle and the people from my line come in and they actually treat you like a human being and shout out to Oberlin College and the groups that go into the prisons man.

Warren: 6:32

No doubt. And then I can say and then they, they even come in here and but you can see the individuals who are Used to being in groups like that and those who were just introduced. And it's like, remember, back in a day's we used to go to parties and you'll see certain guys out there dancing with the girls and other ones that's sitting up on a corner we call them wall flowers just just looking around, I think they dance and they intermingling, they just, they, just there, and that's that's how a lot of these individuals are and they, they're just, they're like shell shocked, because you already know being in prison, we always see the line. No matter what you do, no matter what you say, you always see the line. And when you're, when you're conversing with one of these individuals, they don't see the line, they're just talking the way they normally talk. They they're interacting the way they normally interact with another person, especially once they realize we don't have Fangs and and claws like they describe us to have. They realize we're just people. So they're just interacting the way they would normally interact with individuals and so they don't see a line.

Warren: 7:46

We always see the line and you always wonder am I getting too close? Am I? Am I looking too long? Am I saying the things the wrong way? Am I being too aggressive? I'm not being too quiet like these? All these questions are constantly going through your head and you start over thinking things. And but those of us who have been around this environment and individuals like this for a long period of time, we're perfectly at home, yeah, and in those type of environments, and it's just. It's interesting Having this exchange with these young people because they remind you of some of the fears and concerns and thoughts and wild ideas and how expressive you was, how certain you was with certain things, and they just they will at least remind me of those things.

Warren: 8:31

Yeah, I remember being in there. I talked to a lady who had came in and she ended up being like one of the coolest people to ever come in. But you could see that difference between the first time she came in and then after she came in, the second and third time, and she told us she was like man, the stuff that they told us before we came in here for the first time yeah, you know they was talking to. All they talked about was how every inmate was a threat and you know self-defense and Stay aware. And she was like my god, like they would really, you know, they have fuck around and make somebody change their mind. And I want to come in here, you know.

Warren: 9:16

Yeah, but by the time you come in a second, third time, you, like many dudes, just want to be treated like people, you know. And on the flip side, you could tell the inmates, like you said, that it's their first time coming into a setting like that, because by being deprived of that setting for so long, they be, they be shell shocked, they be like a dog that went outside for the first time. They just get to running around looking every which way oh man, look at her. Oh man, look at her. Like dude, calm down, we cool here, bro. And then they mess around and just try to blow it for everybody like man, just stay in the block, man like I.

Warren: 10:00

But I mean for real like and dudes, to tell you straight up, like at least they don't hide it, they'd be like amen, you know them, them, people from Oberlin coming Yo, it be some bitches down there like a dude calm down, like we, down there to enjoy some art, some community, you know. But you can't fault them because I mean, how many years they Don't went without having real people interactions. I ain't talking about like prison people interactions, cuz you know, in prison you always got your guard up, you know right, and you always just trying to like milk it for everything because you know it's about to be gone. If it's something good is, it ain't gonna last. So you can't be mad at them. But at the same time is like bruh Compose yourself, you know yeah.

Warren: 10:48

Yeah, man, that's. It's hard because we we live in a constant state of deprivation and it gets to the point where you start thanking people for giving you things that you just supposed to naturally have. As a person Like I know, when I, when I first really start interacting with individuals from the outside why remember the echo stent used to come in here. When they still do come here, I'm still a part of their, their out in the box ministry, but I remember they when they first came in, I was one of them. People that stood back like you know, I go. You know, stay over here, you'll make sure everything is cool, I'm safe. No one of them, one of them Institutionalized, messed up way of thinking. And I remember, um Mari's wife, lynette she was, she was speaking and she came up to me who asked, like you know, what are you here for? What is your name? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I told her I don't have a problem with that, but I remember telling her. I say you know, I thank you, because Sometimes we in prison we forget that we're human and when you treat us in a human way, meaning that you see us, you hear us, you're not, you're not judging us You're.

Warren: 12:01

You're treating us like our voice matters, like like our thoughts matters, that we matter. Sometimes you're not accustomed to that and when you finally get it, sometimes you're defensive against it and you don't want to be defensive of it. You don't. You don't know how to. You don't know how to treat it any other way because it's so foreign to you where you've forgotten it, that this the way you're naturally supposed to be treated. This is a. This is a didn't give you anything special, they just treated you way you're supposed to be treated as a human being. You forget that at times.

Warren: 12:34

Yeah, I remember coming to level two and you know, look, coming to level two, you finally realize like, oh, it's really programs to do. You know, level three, you like man, I've been on a program waiting list for two years but I remember when I first got there getting into a program and the people was being nice to me and back then I was fresh off the bus from level three, I only knew two ways. Well, I only knew of two ways that people respond to being nice, and it's either you, the creep dude as soon as one of the CEOs smile at you and say, hey, how you doing, you're like bro, she's feeling me or you, one of those people would be like why the fuck is you being so nice? Yeah, you know, like, what's your angle? What trick you trying to play on me? Man, like, get away from me. You know cause we not used to that you know.

Warren: 13:36

And once I got to like college, once I got to go into college to Ashland University, I remember my professor telling me like I don't want none of y'all to put your prison number on anything in here, like that is not this setting. You are not in prison when you come to college in here and I was like damn, that's hard Cause. You know, I put my number before I put my name.

Warren: 14:00

Wow, yeah, it's a trip, cause I, you know, I ran programs and every time I used to sit in a program and I'll I always liked people being in a circle, cause I was a feature for me to see everyone and get everyone involved. And I'll always say you know, I want you to say your name and I want you to tell something about you. And everyone would give this same answer. So many times I had to change my format. This is where we looked at one of their answers ago yeah, my name Warren.

Warren: 14:35

I've been down for 30 years and you know I just I just come to the program, you know, to see what I can get, and I just have to listen when I say I want you to tell me about you. You can't mention anything about prison, cause you didn't start in prison, your interests don't end in prison and you're going to eventually get out of prison. Tell me something about who you are. And people used to have a problem figuring what I was asking for, because their whole identity was wrapped up in that number and I remember this one guy I was. I wanted to get in the program, but I didn't really say anything. I'm just standing there.

Warren: 15:14

And I eventually said yeah, somebody said that I that, in order for me to get in your program, that I should ask you. And he was like, yeah, you can get in it. And I was like oh, and he said do you know why? I said you can get into it and I'm like no. He said because you had that look like you was expecting me to tell you no. So he was bracing for it and I didn't even know that I had that. Look, I'm thinking I'm just sitting there like what's up, I don't care, I won't wave another. But what he saw was this anticipation to be turned down. And it's so many of us to walk around with a lot of this stuff that's inside us that we don't even notice because it's normal around here. It's a common look, it's a common feel, it's a common mentality that we're. We were so, so, so, obviously not even knowing that it's the second part of our skin.

Warren: 16:09

Yeah, I mean, how many times you don't want to send a kite for something? And before you even sent the kite to ask for it, you started researching ways to appeal it. I'm dead out serious, You'd be like and if they say no man, I'm gonna go over here and talk to someone. So and I'm like you know, like damn bro, we ain't even asked yet.

Warren: 16:34

But that's the way it is, but that's real.

Warren: 16:39

And I'm telling you, man, people carry that out here, man, they carry it home with us because we don't do anything inside to break ourselves from that expectation or that way of thinking. You know, and I thought I was doing everything I could to break that whole prison state of mind and come home without any strings or any scars, and you know, debbie will tell you like, eh, I kind of noticed that you do this one thing and I kind of noticed that you know, yeah, I ain't ashamed of it. You know, if anything, I'm like damn, really like, tell me more, because we don't see that. I mean amongst our peers, we can't point it out. Even the best of us who think we not institutionalized, got some type of fall over the lenses. You know, we can't see for real, yeah, so oh, man, that's crazy.

Warren: 17:38

But a lot of us, we think, is that the institutionalized look a certain way. Yeah. You know, I just tell people. I said, man, if you've been locked up over three years, you're institutionalized. Yeah, I ain't institutionalized. You think I'm?

Warren: 17:50

crazy. I never said you were crazy. Yeah, I was just about to say that I think you're institutionalized. I was just about to say that we think institutionalized is like mad call you know, like you know psych meds, you damn. He's lost his mind in here. Man, he be out there. Yeah, you know it ain't that.

Warren: 18:05

Stereotyping on all the movies. You know guys ironing grilled cheese sandwiches and walking around with wave caps and like that's not what the institutionalized is, you know it. Just, it just means that you become so comfortable and conditioned on the way the institution is ran that it becomes a part of your norm. I've told you that one time when my little sister came down when I was in Lebanon and I was so happy to see her and I grabbed her and I hugged her and she was like, oh, it's like you can't, you can't grab me like that. I'm a woman, you know. It didn't even cross my mind because this is the way I greet everyone else around here that didn't even cross my mind that.

Warren: 18:46

I was I was embracing her roughly. The way we eat, the way we sit, the way we like do almost everything in our daily lives. We've been doing it for so long that it becomes normal to us.

Warren: 18:59

Yeah, somebody told me when I got home that I hunch over my food with my elbows on the table like somebody was gonna take it from me. I was like what the fuck are you talking about? Like you just tried to play me man. They like no, for real. Like no, you know I got bad posture and you know, but they was like nah, bro, it's a little bit more than that.

Warren: 19:23

And this it's a what's that? I'm tense.

Warren: 19:29

Oh, I'm tense too. I just got a massage, because I'm always tense.

Warren: 19:34

Yeah, like I just recently started doing a breathing relaxation. I never knew how much tension I keep on my shoulders and my jaws and my in my chin and I'm just everything is, it's like out already. I never really noticed that until I started relaxing. I'm like, wow, I never realized how how just ready I am and this is like one of the softest camps you can possibly be in. And I'm still ready, you know. But it comes from that conditioning that there's always a danger, there's always someone trying to get over, there's always something that I'm waiting for the next shoe to drop, and in every situation I go in, I'm looking for the negative, and that's not a positive way to live. I'm getting better. I'm not as bad as I used to be, but I still know that I have a lot of work to do in these next three years before I come home.

Warren: 20:31

That's crazy cause that's almost like verbatim what I just told Debbie. Like two episodes ago I was like man, I go into every situation, almost like looking for all the bad things so I can be prepared for them. I was like, even in relationships, like I don't go in thinking that everybody's got good intentions and everybody's gonna give me love. Like I go in thinking like all right, man, how this person is gonna try to fuck me over and that is like 100%. It comes from like a prison environment or even before prison. You know, being in the streets, being in the gang, being like In an environment where even your best friend will turn around and stab you, shoot you still from you, you know, and it's always that old cliche like, oh man, you know you lose your we and do this stola to sit there and help you look for it. You know, like it's always somebody, even the people close to you. That's like trying to get over, because we in this environment where the majority of the people were to have knots, you know.

Warren: 21:37

And it just just recently something like that happened to me, because we we know when some bullshit is in the game. And so this bill. The seal came up to our side. He followed me upstairs, he coming to sell my bunkie, land on the bed and he said well, I'm shaking y'all down, so whatever y'all need to get on, get it in step on now. So I step on out, I go around a corner, I'm watching TV, so the seal come back out the cell. He shuts the door and say, well, I'm gonna finish doing my rounds. I'm like, okay, man, but do your job. The seal come back and he, he go back in the cell, come back. I'm like, uh, what are you sure? I said, well, I'm gonna top on my buddy, my bunkies on the bottom. He's okay, he leave.

Warren: 22:18

I'm thinking nothing happened, nothing good. I've been wanting to sell all my bunkie stuff. Tow up, I mean tow up, my stuff ain't even touched. And so I go to my bunk. I say, hey, man, you and that CEO beefin, I think that's me he told you stuff up as a heating to touch my stuff. So I'll go on. No, you know, you know I have some mares around. He is nothing.

Warren: 22:38

Come to find out there was K2 in the sale. So my bunkie come up to me and he say hey man, I'm going to the hole cuz the seal that said he found K2 and I don't mess with the stuff. And I said I don't mess with the stuff. So now what I'm saying, what you say that did I put the stuff in the set.

Warren: 22:57

Now, pissed off now. But I'm you know what. I'm gonna give him the benefit of doubt. All his buddies come up and why he going to the hole. He don't mess with the stuff. I said why I keep telling me he don't mess with the stuff. I don't mess with the stuff. So I'm going to the, to the case manager. What are you, the manager? They listen. My bunkie went to the hole. They say he has some K2. Could you leave the sale open so he do the investigation, so he can come out? He was like he's done, he ain't coming back. So I'm like, okay, now, as time go on, I'm getting more information. I'm getting more information. They tested it that they actually came into our sale looking for his stuff not my stuff, because someone sent him into our sale, which means you had to be doing something for them to even come to our sale and find that stuff, but he's going around saying it could have been my bunkie now I'm really pissed and I'm like this is.

Warren: 23:49

This is like some of the basic bullshit that happened in here. When you stand all the way out the way and doing nothing.

Warren: 23:59

You know, you know something that is remarkable. I had planned for this episode to be about reputation, you know, and One of the things that I was talking about was like, even if you not involved in anything, whether you know you not a snitch, you don't get involved in drugs gangs fighting nothing like stuff will be thrown your way and Stuff will just grow. It's like mold. It is a little bit here wildfire. Everybody's talking about it, everybody's saying something different, throwing little tidbits in and before the end of the day, you every bit of the extreme, you know, you know, and so I was thinking like it's like a pop, it's like a constant PR stunt or PR battle.

Warren: 24:52

Yeah, but that was. That was my only saving grace. My only saving grace was they went into that sale specifically looking for his stuff, because if they just a random shakedown and they went through both of our stuff and they found it, both of us would have went to the hole Out of it, sitting in a hole in the investigation that I wanted to. I would have wanted to kick his ass because I know it's gonna go on my parole to my parole thing and I'm gonna go down for something. I'm gonna go down for kicking your lap, not because you're super shit in that sale, and so I'm glad they did the things the way they did it and everything came out the way it did.

Warren: 25:35

But man, this dude has been bunking since October in the same sale and I give him all the respect and consideration, but he could have screwed me over over a $50 piece of K2. You know, and it's things like that that you always got to have your head on a swivel, you always got to be prepared and even with all of that, you can still get screwed. It's just, fortunately, that my reputation of my character after all these years finally have some good PR behind it. Like nah, he ain't got that. Ain't we got to worry about him is the other one. That's the one we have to watch out for.

Warren: 26:18

Yeah you know how it is when the CO's used to come in the block. Oh, who in there? Oh yeah, hey, what's he doing down there? Because you know you got something you ain't supposed to have. You trying to figure out how do you gonna clean it up or get it out? Your sale? You know how that is. I gotta worry about it. They coming to sale. You don't see your butt. Okay, I ain't got nothing here. I worry about that.

Warren: 26:39

You know, one of the little dot points that I had here was on a subject of, like snitching. Right, yeah, and it's funny, though, because Even the most hard-nosed CO's don't like snitches, unless they need them. Now, if you got some information, yeah, okay, that was valuable, cool, but then they throw your ass to the wolves after that, like so, Like I don't seen.

Warren: 27:15

Plenty times were like Dudes go up to a CO and they try to snitch on some stuff and the CO come straight over to a group of dudes and like am I Dude over here talking about X, y and Z? Man, keep your ass away from me. Like, like what I Seen it where a dude came and was doing mail call. Co was doing mail call. He gave the kite that another inmate wrote to a captor, gave it to the dude who was the subject of the kite. Like amen, like, keep your shit clean. Like dude over here and we all sitting there like this shit, they just happened, bro. This one fucking just gave you the kite that dude sent to the captain. Like the captain sent it back. Like man, tell us my fucking, alright, me no more. But that's how I be.

Warren: 28:01

Like when, yeah, when CO come to your cell and he like hey, you know what y'all got going on there. Like the best thing you can do, I don't care if you, you got shit, ain't got shit, know who got shit. It's like man, go ahead. Do you think I Don't know shit? Stop asking me these questions. Go do your job Because I'm telling you appearance. People sitting there on the, on the, at the tables in the block Sitting across the range. They look in just to see how you gonna respond when the CO walk up.

Warren: 28:36

Yeah.

Warren: 28:38

You know, and like you said, you just like, all right, go ahead. So when people get to China and sing, you wait and put certain stuff on you, you like hell. No, plus, my name Don't even ring like that, so don't even try to put me on that, you know.

Warren: 28:54

Yeah, but the only problem with that, especially when you've been in the camp for so long, these, these lower security camps, they have a rotating population. You know the higher security camp you could be been with a guy 15 years. Y'all both be in the same block together. You know, with these lower security camps, they're constantly rotating, so the people who may have known me in 2015 almost all of them are gone and so it's a new crowd. So they don't know me from Adam.

Warren: 29:27

You could put paper was on my name and they buy yeah, I don't like that mother anyway, it's probably true. So it's like you. You're always happy to Demonstrate who you are and again, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not the tough guy I want to go home, but I'm also a person that I'm not gonna lie to you, because I don't feel a need to lie to you. If I have something to say to you, I'm gonna say it to you if there's a problem that we have we're gonna address the problem, all of that Back biting behind your back stuff, and I'm never going to try to set a person up.

Warren: 30:02

If I was gonna set a person up I would have did that and I had this twin life hanging over my head. You know that I would have done a long time ago when it mattered, not when it don't mean, mean anything now, but those those things just just isn't in my character. And but again, you're always dealing with a younger population, you're dealing with a newer population and Situations like that. Sometimes you don't have to get on the chin and other times the staff members will say you don't have to worry about him because this is what he's into. I know him, I've been around him for a long time, you don't have to worry about you, haven't got to kick it with the staff members. They just see it like nah, I do, don't do anything Because I was. That was a thing like on all the camps that I've been in. There's only two reasons why you should talk to a CO. The three reason one, you try to get a kite or something to you, trying to come up. Or three, you snitches.

Warren: 31:00

Those are the people feel like you was all good with the old. If you, up there, talk a 12 for a long period of time, you, you had to be one of those three and if you have one minute remaining, and that's when I came to these lower camps with that mentality like you don't talk to see others for what which I've got to talk about. But I had it different in these lower camps.

Warren: 31:23

It's a. It's an interesting subject to look at the difference between, like old law, or people doing a long bit, that's well into it, yeah, or people who like short-time in, you know, in and out prison real quick, like I'm telling you, the way they bit is so different, like day and night, and I often wondered when I was there and grafting, like what would they do? They was talking about getting rid of all the Ola and lifers and all that stuff. I was like what the hell are y'all thinking? Like these dudes keep order around here, yeah, cuz if not it would be a gladiator camp, it would be a bail mark.

Warren: 32:03

You know, you know one of the interesting things that I remember, kind of like, like I said, like you know, the CEOs don't like snitches or whatever too, but like you right, the CEOs are the only people who kind of stayed there the longest. So they get to see everybody. They go to different blocks, get to, you know, see how people move different places and I Haven't seen it where, like somebody new come in and you know you get to hanging with them and stuff, get to talking to them at CoC, you walking by with them and see over like a Jones come here Like hey, how you know, dude.

Warren: 32:47

You like that. What type of question is that like no a listen, he a crash out artist, or he a thief, or he a you know Any, whatever.

Warren: 32:56

No matter what he is, he trouble for you, like you know yeah, but also also, like one of the things that I learned about, feel like there was a CEO. So you remember CEO Snyder. Yeah.

Warren: 33:10

I Don't mess with the older and the older inmates. He said I messed with the younger ones and I'm like that makes no sense. They're the ones who are going to knock your block off. I put it so he told me. He said I don't mess with the older ones because I know when something need to be handled, they're the ones who're gonna handle it, because I don't.

Warren: 33:28

I don't mess with them. But he said I mess with the young ones to see who am I dealing with it. So if I mess with my character, stuff up and they flare up. He said, okay, I know I have a problem, I know how to deal with you. But if they just come in, he said, okay, I'll leave them alone and I'll he didn't, I'll get the one, the rowdy one's, out my block. But he said he don't, he didn't mess with the older ones and he didn't like. He made like when he if you don't know you, he may see. Okay, which? Which? Are you a knucklehead or you, a person who has sense? But after that he didn't, he didn't mess with the older ones. And that's what I mean by that.

Warren: 33:59

They appreciate it. They know that something crazy going on in his block there's gonna be some some people who's not. They don't care about the institution, they care about the individual. They're going to talk to the individual and say, hey, man, leave that alone. Josh is squashed, it ain't worth it. You got to think about this.

Warren: 34:19

They're going to try to put something in their head that will make them quail the situation. Some situations can't be quailed, but most of them can be, because a lot of times it's just ego and just I can't let it go or a debt can be paid off easily. But yeah, the individuals who's been down for a long time, most of them have a certain level of respect just because you've been down, like you see, some people are in the band still in Lucasville, lebanon and they try to use that to say, please stay off my ass. But those people who was actually in those places and actually have established themselves and people know who they are they use that as saying I've been where you've been at and where you're going is not going to lead to any place other than more time we're back in that hole. But yeah, a lot of these sales they respect or at least appreciate the calming effect of individuals who's been down longer than the younger ones.

Warren: 35:20

You know, it's interesting that the dudes that have been down for a while and the dudes that have been back on six different numbers don't get the same respect. They don't, they don't. It's funny you mentioned Snyder man because everybody well, I ain't gonna say everybody people, all the young dudes, all the short timers, they all think Snyder is the biggest piece of shit. We love to see him. Just take one to the neck for real Like, and don't get me wrong, he is an asshole. But I had fondness and respect for Snyder because he never changed, and that's one thing that I loved.

Warren: 36:01

I love that we've been all day, all day, to say that he never changed. He is a predictable asshole.

Warren: 36:06

That's what I love, because I'm that way myself, but also in prison. Man, the worst thing you can have is especially when it comes to staff, but really anybody the worst thing you have is a person that is one way one day and a whole different way the next day. So I know that, oh, snyder working a block, it is certain shit I'm not going to do on his shift, it's just that. It's that simple. I like it that way and I like it that way. I know that if certain shit go down, he going to respond a certain way. Everybody else like man, fuck that dude, man dude. Always I'm like you knew better.

Warren: 36:43

You knew. You know he's working. You know he's working. You know what his tech thieves are. Some things he listens to. That's fine, but certain things you know he is going to be on your ass about.

Warren: 36:55

And I respected that all the way, like yeah, dude, asshole, he can be a piece of shit. He ain't ever been a piece of shit to me.

Warren: 37:04

Let me ask you this question, because at what point did your reputation stop mattering in here?

Warren: 37:16

So you know, reputation, one of those things that it'll follow you to a whole other joint. It'll follow you all the way across the state it does and it'll get there before you get there. It does.

Warren: 37:28

But when did it stop mattering to you?

Warren: 37:31

Well, it stopped mattering to me probably about seven years in, because by then I was all like man, fuck the bullshit, I know nothing. But I found out that it still mattered to other people. But of course by that time I had dropped my security level all the way down to a level one, and it's only probably two, three people in the whole institution that I done did time with somewhere else. But some stuff popped off and people was like, hey, hold on a timeout, y'all don't want to do that. I was like damn, so-and-so, told you what? I didn't even realize that they didn't just so happen to talk to somebody that did time me, other or somewhere else, and they had told them like, hey, y'all don't want to do that. And to be honest, I'm glad they did, because I was questioning myself like, am I still that person? Would I still respond?

Warren: 38:38

Yeah, you definitely do that.

Warren: 38:40

Like, if this motherfucker would have came in here, what would I have done? I don't even know. I know six years ago what I would have done. Maybe this has been toast, but now it's like I don't like to use the word, but I'm comfortable, I'm close to home, I ain't got a word about shankings in the shower and shit, no more. I'm getting to that point where I'm filing for judicial release and all types of stuff. So now I'm like but just go away, just go away. The people it's kind of like the same way we started the episode. It's like the people that know me for a long time is like just go away. Hey man, you in danger, you in danger. I think I'm being too nice about it. You in danger. In reality, I'm just like but I don't want no problems. Like, go away. Don't get me wrong If you push this past a certain point. Yes, it is going to be every bit of what they say, but for now I'm like just go, Just go away. So I stopped worrying about reputation probably about seven years in, because that's when I was playing Dungeons and Dragons, magic to gathering, and I remember this was in 2012. So this was probably like four, five years in.

Warren: 40:02

I remember playing Dungeons and Dragons man with this group of like really nerdy white dudes, and this dude come in. He trying to take the room from us, when it was all conference rooms with tables and stuff. So he like hey, we trying to gamble, you're going to go. All these white dudes start packing up everything. They ain't say nothing, they just start packing up and I put my hands on like hey, whoa, like bro, you messing up, you jacking my wreck right now. He like man, I don't want to hear that shit. Man, nigga, I'm a real nigga, I'm like bro. We from the same hood, like you know my people on the street, I was like bro. He got his dudes with him right behind them. They bringing stuff in already. They bought the gamble.

Warren: 40:47

You know, I'm like bro, how you going to look in front of your dudes when you get beat up by a nigga playing Dungeons and Dragons? He kind of just thought about it, like man, man, let's go. Y'all Like, yeah, like man, it's my turn. Y'all better put this shit back on the table. You know, roll that die. But I was so out of the loop for real because I stopped focusing on you know the happenings of like the bullshit. I was just focusing on passing time and staying out of trouble, so I really didn't even think about reputation until it hit and I'm like, wait, what Just do? Really just trying me like this Damn man. But for the first time in my life it was really like the thought process of how should I handle this kicked in before I acted, right Before it was me.

Warren: 41:47

What's that? Reputation stop mattering to me when the environment got safer, like as my security levels start dropping From five to four to three to twos to one. The more they drop, the less reputation matter to me. But when they were in them high levels, that was. That was almost like a shield for sure you know, certain people are known for certain things, like I wasn't known to be rowdy, I wasn't known to be no knocking stuff out. That wasn't what my reputation was. My reputation was he's just a cool dude that will fight.

Warren: 42:31

That's the best, that's the best reputation I have. Like you, cool, you lay back, you mind your business. Don't try me though.

Warren: 42:43

They say that. They said he will sit and plot something. I was known for that as well. I hear you think of something and you do it, but that's what I was known for and that that's safeguarded me Wherever I went. Like you say it, it'd beat you to the institution.

Warren: 43:00

But once I started into these lower security prisons, my whole mentality on how to get shifted, because I didn't want to be in that lifestyle anymore of the gambling and the drugs and the gang. I don't want to be in that anymore. I was trying to do a clean bid. There was no more hustling, there was no more getting around corners, and you know I still was. I still was drinking and smoking weed, but that eventually it took. I'm not doing that eventually later, but that that the things that that reputation carried, I was no longer walking in the shoes anymore. I was like you start wondering like man, I ain't been in the fight like five years, I won't. There's someone trying to open. I even do like how would I even handle it? Because I was like my mind was just so Out of that loop of being in a situation where I'll even have to fight. Oh, but yeah, that's, my security's got lower and the environment became safer, reputation start becoming more meaningless to me, and now, instead of reputation, I was working on character.

Warren: 44:04

I was trying to build up the person who I was, so I could be proud of myself. I would know who I was. I could. I could stand strong on him and no one could define it or give me value To say this is what war is worth. I already knew what war was worth within myself.

Warren: 44:20

That became more important to me than how someone else thought of me yeah, now it's Definitely like a time in the bit where that's the most important thing really is like self-awareness and self-value and then projecting it outward. But you know in the beginning, like that reputation is so valuable that you protect it. You protect it, like I said, it's like a constant PR battle. Yeah, I remember it was this young dude. Young Dude was probably like 19, black dude from Toledo, thick ass, bottle cap, glasses, man, short, like his whole uniform, his whole, everything was his baggy on him. But he had a little money, you know, and Dudes, he his sales right next to my my so was all the way in the back on the bottom tier. You know that was the kickest spot. And Some dudes end up going in this sale and stealing some stuff. Yeah, actually, no matter fact. Oh, yeah, all right, all right. So, yeah, do when the sale and stole some stuff and he ain't do nothing about it and I'm telling him like breath, you know who did it. I Need you to go over there and fight dude, because I'll be kicking it with you back here, you, my neighbor, right man? Oh, fight dude, man, I'm gonna fight dude. So like two, three days later, the same dude Ended up. You know our ironing board was out in the middle of the blocks in the hallway. And so he out there ironing clothes, man, the same dude come and choke him out from behind, take the shoes off his feet. I'm like, bro, you gotta go and you gotta go and fight. Dude. No, I'm not fighting, man, I'm fighting. I'm like, listen, I'm not gonna let nobody jump you, I'm not gonna let nobody stump you, but you, if you gonna stay right here, you gotta go fighting. So he go fighting. You know he lose, you know he get lumped up a little bit, but I kept my word. He got his stuff back. You know, I made sure they gave me stuff back. But he didn't already let dude steal the shit twice. Everybody knew he only fought because I'm eating fight. So they came.

Warren: 46:47

He came back from child one day and it was three dudes in his sale. He opened the door and I'm at the workout bars right in front of it and I just kind of let it play out. Man. But he opened the door and the three dudes like man, they could close the door. And he closed the door, they in there discussing how they gonna divvy up his stuff, and he, he just cried and he, he, I was like a I'm I'm sorry to be like harder than you like this, but when they come up out of there I need you to pack whatever left and you gotta go.

Warren: 47:30

You know, because every day you out here hanging with me, but I can't have that on my name. And Legit, like he waited until you know nine, nine, thirty count, and he sat out there at the day room table and they was like man, what you doing? He's like nine going in and they took him to the hole and I was like damn right, because that is something that you cannot do in prison. I'm telling you when I say that it will follow you everywhere you go to another prison. You like man, it's too hard here. I'm gonna go all the way across the state and it's gonna be at least two dudes watching you through the fence, get off the bus like and that's dude right there, I'll her, he's sweet and he got money and Don't fall out, whatever like.

Warren: 48:19

I remember you with a soul, so you let that do. Take all your shit. Now you were, you a hope.

Warren: 48:25

Why are you over here talking tough? You ain't talked tough to do that was choking you out, taking the shoes of your feet but my dude, my dude Snoop, told me before and this would really made me more bold to fight.

Warren: 48:39

He said most people don't fight because they're afraid to lose and if they lose, they're afraid of what people may think about them if they lose. He said don't concentrate so much on fighting. Concentrate on proving your point. You fight to prove a point. I'm not gonna let you do this. You're not gonna treat me this. You're gonna give me my reason. You always fight to prove a point. He says you fight to prove a point. You're gonna fight a lot harder. It doesn't matter what the outcome is, because you know you would do it again. And when he instilled that in me, I didn't fear anyone.

Warren: 49:10

Yes, I don't hear how big you are what you run your mind. I don't care about any of that. You ain't gonna just expect me. You ain't gonna treat me like. Look at the reason why we'll fight more. I was too. Reason why we'll fight more than anything. The first was if you was fighting somebody that I was, that I was cool with, I would definitely fight. But I also find if I thought that you was picking a shot.

Warren: 49:28

Oh yeah, cuz I'm a little guy. So if I thought that if I was six to Two, 15 to 30, you wouldn't be running your mouth the way it is, but you only doing it because I'm with five, eight at the time I was like 150 something then yeah, we would definitely have to fight that.

Warren: 49:45

I'm not a shot when I got the graph to my scene, do is picking on older dudes and stuff. I'm like I'm gonna take his work. They like what? Yeah, get the fuck out of here. You 25 picking on a 60 year old. Get out of here, man. But yeah, snoop, you mentioned Snoop. Snoop is the dude that came and occupied that sale after dude left. Oh.

Warren: 50:07

Really.

Warren: 50:07

Yeah, I end up being next to him in the sale for probably about two years. Man Yep, back in Toledo. Yep, and, um, yeah, that was, that was dope man, he a cool dude.

Warren: 50:23

Yeah, when he told me that any fear that I might have had it, just all that just erased out of my head, because I say it wasn't about on me. He may get out of me, I didn't care about that. You ain't gonna treat me the way you think you won't treat me. You won't give me mine. I don't care who you are.

Warren: 50:38

It was a dude named Roach who was across the hall from us, across the aisle from us. Roach was a dummy. He was a I ain't gonna come a crash out artists. He was definitely a crash dummy. Like any drug, he just do it, no questions. Like he was just stupid. But his reputation, his primary reputation, wasn't that. His primary reputation was He'll fight anybody. Yeah, because he is one. Those people that you get to thinking in your head like minutes do stupid, like you'll get to think you just Going treating bad and he a fight. He'll stand up and fight for himself every time. So every time, people that know him be like hey, don't, don't fuck with him, man, he cool, because they know he about to crash out, he about to go on here and fight. He ain't won one yet in all four years We've been here. You know, but he gonna do it. So let's just go ahead and like let's leave him alone, man.

Warren: 51:39

And but you know, you know what that.

Warren: 51:42

I Was just gonna say, like it was to the point where, like people paid Roaches debts for him, all types of stuff, people like man, I'm gonna fuck him up. They like nah, man here, what do you owe you here? Don't even worry about it, right?

Warren: 51:58

Absolutely. But you know what? Another, another thing that I wanted a reputation that I had was I'm fair, because I'm not gonna talk to us a sweet person. I'm not gonna say something to a weak person if I wouldn't say it to a strong. I'm not. I'm not the kind of person that's going to treat you a certain way simply because I think that you're weaker or that I can get over on you and I probably can't. I'm not gonna do that. There was, there was a this. There was is crazy. There was a certain ethics in being wrong and being being Doing all the things that I was doing, doing all the things that I was doing. There was still an ethics involved in it. There was still a certain Understanding that we had that this is just something you don't do.

Warren: 52:43

Yeah, it's pretty false to say that there's no honor amongst thieves because, you know, we really did have kind of a code, you know.

Warren: 52:54

Yeah, it really, really is, and that that was something that you just understood, and if you went against it, then you were found there.

Warren: 53:05

That was a definition of foul if you was in a group of people that was worth anything, good or bad. You know we call it picking shots. If you picking shots, that hurt your reputation, you ain't. You ain't doing nothing by putting them out there that they weak. We all know they weak. Why is you fucking with him, is the question.

Warren: 53:27

And even to this day, my pet peeve Is petty people. And when you're doing something that's not fair, that will that will set me off fat. Those are my triggers petty people and when, when something is being done that's not fair. Damn bro you just because those are the things about my reputation, and now my territory is built off. Oh, I believe in fairness.

Warren: 53:52

Hey man, listen, I ain't gonna front. You know we agree on a lot of stuff. You know I feel like you like a brother, a long lost brother man. But me I go through life like ain't shit fair, get over it. And I'm known for being king petty like stupid pet. Don't, don't, don't, open that door.

Warren: 54:21

I'm not saying life is fair, but I'm saying if you and I have the choice of being fair, like you give this person something and you know this person was opposed to get it, but you still give it to them, that would bother me and I would have to say something because I'm like that. What that's not fair? What makes this person better than them? They deserve to have it just as much as they deserve to have it. That that will be something that I would, I would have to speak up about because it's just to me that's just not fair. Oh yeah, that was that would buy, it would. It would bother my conscience. So we're we may just be different on that.

Warren: 55:02

Because I, you know, I don't know, I don't. I got, you know, conflicting stuff inside of me, man Cuz. Sometimes I'm like, and get over it, fuck it why you want it, yeah. And then sometimes I'm like, right you, right, man here, let me, let me share with you, let me break brand. Yeah, I can't tell you what makes the the difference of how I respond. Maybe it's just all in the mood, I mean. But I mean sometimes I've been a cold hearted son of a gun man, like man shut up with the complainant. Yeah, it ain't fair.

Warren: 55:37

So I Remember I told you that Christine helped me go through my emotional maturity and there was a lot of things that was just absent in me, not because I wanted them to, but you know, I've been through a lot of stuff and traumatic stuff since I was a kid and I had got to the point that my own is a viable mechanism was just to be numb to everything, to simply not care. That was, that was how I survived, and so I didn't know how to like like basic things that people connected emotionally I had no connection to that and Things that people say, well, what do you feel about that? I wasn't different to. I was like, okay, it happened. I mean, I don't. I don't know what you supposed to think, I'm supposed to say behind that or what I'm, how I'm supposed to react to it. It happened, you can't go back and fix it. You just got to move on and she kind of helped reawaken those emotions back in me.

Warren: 56:39

Well, I see things, I'm able to empathize with people and be compassionate towards them and To see the humanness in them, and at first I'm like, oh, that made me, saw him, I'm sitting up there getting all emotional. But it actually strengthened me because now I'm able to connect the people on a human level where before it was just savagery and just surviving. That's all there was and that's not how you live. So that's where a lot of that like I said, that's where my character started being developed, where before I didn't care about character, I just cared about surviving, and surviving meant I came before everything. So let me get everything I'm supposed to get, and if it's a little less than I may consider letting you have some of it. But that didn't lead nowhere to but destruction and just being a asshole. That wasn't cool.

Warren: 57:34

You remember my famous words man, you'll get over it, you'll get over it. That was my jam right there. Man, you'll get over it, I'll get over it. I used it on myself too, so I wasn't no one sided person. I'm like man, you'll get over it. And then, oh, what was me? Shit happens, some real bad shit happens. I'm like man, I'm mad, I'm sad, whatever it is, I'm just like man, fucking, I get over it, like I got to move on.

Warren: 58:00

Jeremy, I'm telling you, when that woman that I was involved with broke my heart and I realized that women wasn't lying when they said that shit hurt. It was like real pain and I always thought they was exaggerating. But when I was like man this stuff is like man, you can't get away from it. It wakes you up and it goes to sleep with you and it follows you around. When I realized the gravity of what I actually caused other people to feel, because it was done to me, that changed the whole paradigm of the way I thought and saw the world.

Warren: 58:36

I'm like man that heartbreak, shit. That is something I never, ever, ever, ever, ever want to experience and I never would like another person to feel that, at least coming from me. That was something that I opened in stuff. For me, man, it was like having a near-death experience. You're like, oh my god, this is what life is really about. You start living your life like you've never lived before. That was some other world type stuff and it just shifted my whole perception on my actions and the effect of them on other people and she never would have did that, I probably still would have been cold.

Warren: 59:16

But her doing that, mixed with Christine teaching me about emotion and helping me develop emotionally, it changed the person who I am. I can't even go back to being that because I know too much now.

Warren: 59:30

Yeah, man, that's the point of it all, man, every day. The point of it ain't to accumulate, the point of it ain't none of that man. The point is to grow. Yeah, the point is to grow, Keep growing. And I'm telling you, man, I'm glad you got Christine, I'm glad I got Debbie, because she didn't broke it down plenty of times. Like you can't tell people how they got to respond to something, you can't tell people how they have to feel about something. I'm just saying that's some soft shit. Why they over there crying, like you can't do that?

Warren: 1:00:04

And the truth of the matter is we know they're they're better experts at emotions, expressing feeling, interpreting and reacting to emotions than we are, so we have to learn from them in that regard, and they're great teachers, and we just shut up and listen.

Warren: 1:00:22

Oh yeah, I'm one of those people that whenever stuff happen, I always reflect on everything that came before it in my life and see if there's a lesson to be applied. And I'm going to tell you right now, bro, I don't got soft since coming home, Since getting married, since having kids, stuff like that, Like stuff happened. I'm like damn, I was really hard on some people Because I can't tell you how many. I ain't even in front man, I can't tell you how many times I've cried since I've been home, bro, you know.

Warren: 1:00:54

But Jeremy that's the way it's supposed to be.

Warren: 1:00:57

We're not supposed to be getting harder, we're supposed to be getting softer. That's the you're going to. You have one minute remaining, man. We ain't supposed to be getting harder. We'll be marvel by the time we owe. We ain't put that in what we supposed to be.

Warren: 1:01:13

Man. I'm learning that now, man, and I'm telling you now. Having little girls, man.

Warren: 1:01:20

Everything they say about having little girls is true bro, all right, man, I enjoy talking to you, as always, man, I love you and I'll talk to you soon, man.

DJ: 1:02:00

You can reach out there too for a free sticker, and you can find us on Instagram and Twitter with the handle at lockdown2legacy, and on Facebook at the Lockdown to Legacy podcast. Thanks for listening.