Law Enforcement: Abuse of Power

Come join Remie and DJ as they unravel the threads of authority abuse within the American justice system. Triggered by unsettling events involving Ohio law enforcement, they lay bare the distressing patterns of misconduct. From lawyers taking advantage of clients to corruption in the police ranks, these stories call for a dire need for transparency and accountability. Join them as they share their insights, personal experiences, and a deep dive into the murky waters of power dynamics in the justice system.

***Please be advised that some subject matter discussed in this episode may be triggering to some individuals. There is subject matter of sexual trauma as well as of traumatic dealings with law enforcement. ***

Articles used for this episode include:
-https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/local/2024/02/06/columbus-police-officer-charged-in-federal-drug-crime-to-he-be-held/72495326007/#

-https://apnews.com/article/business-laws-police-reform-police-government-and-politics-d1301b789461adc582ac659c3f36c03c

-https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/investigations/2019/04/24/usa-today-revealing-misconduct-records-police-cops/3223984002/#:~:text=Less%20than%2010%25%20of%20officers,forces%20get%20investigated%20for%20misconduct

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:19

Welcome to Lockdown the Legacy stories from the inside out. I'm your host, remy Jones.

Speaker 2: 0:25

And I'm co-host Debbie Jones. We are a husband and wife team here to bring you the real life stories, experiences and questions around the American criminal justice system. We do advise discretion with this podcast. I think we should put that out there first and foremost. Yes, we are going to talk about experiences that happen inside the prison system, outside of prison systems. We will use language that might be offensive, but we intend to keep it real. And if that's not for you, we totally understand, but please do what's best for your listening ears.

Speaker 1: 0:56

Oh, we're about to keep it real, son. Our goal of this podcast is to share the inside realities of the American prison and criminal justice system, from precharges all the way to post-release, from the voices of those who've experienced it firsthand, including me.

Speaker 2: 1:12

That's right, we're going to get into it.

Speaker 1: 1:31

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Lockdown on Legacy. Of course I'm your host, remy Jones, and I have a special treat for you guys this week. I know we've been doing a lot of the worn and the wise episodes and I hope you guys are still loving those, because those guys love to be a part of this show and I love having them be a part of it. But we're kind of going back to the original layout for this week and I got the beautiful, the wonderful, the smart and the talented DJ.

Speaker 2: 2:03

Oh, how I have missed that.

Speaker 1: 2:07

I tell you that all the time. It's not just for the show.

Speaker 2: 2:10

No, it's not. You're lovely and wonderful all the way around. So I'm really, I'm excited. I'm excited to be back. I know it's been intermittent and I appreciate being able to step away. This is a season where I need to step away, and so you have not blinked at that and you're like, don't worry about it, I got it.

Speaker 1: 2:33

I breathe in silence. It's all on the inner side. It's killing me.

Speaker 2: 2:37

That's not true.

Speaker 1: 2:39

No, I mean, I can make it sound good, right.

Speaker 2: 2:42

Yep.

Speaker 1: 2:43

Anyway, like I said, glad to have you back, love. It's been far too long. Let's do a little catch up though. I mean the people want to know. The people want to know.

Speaker 2: 2:57

I don't actually remember when our last episode together was, so I guess it's been a minute. Yeah. I don't even know what's happened because I don't know when it was. I know we talked about our diet once, so it must have been after January. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 3:15

I'll rub that.

Speaker 2: 3:19

But I don't really know what happened in February. What would you like to catch up on? Well, first starters.

Speaker 1: 3:26

I've tried having a little social life, you know. So I've done some interesting stuff in the last month or so. I went to the Drake and J Cole concert.

Speaker 2: 3:36

That's right.

Speaker 1: 3:37

I'm my favorite cousin and mentor, ronnie, so shout out Big Ron. And then, as a special treat, my brother, of course, the day before texted me and said that he was driving up from Virginia because he was also going to the concert. Little bit of a miscommunication, which neither of us knew that the concert was going to be multiple days long. So he was actually going to the concert the day after me, but I thought we were supposed to be meeting each other there.

Speaker 2: 4:07

Yeah, that's funny.

Speaker 1: 4:08

So I'm like at the front gate, like bro, where are you at what's?

Speaker 2: 4:11

the section you in.

Speaker 1: 4:12

He's like oh we're still driving up there. I'm like what?

Speaker 2: 4:16

No, I think that's funny.

Speaker 1: 4:18

Yeah, yeah, but good times. We're having some intermittent good weather. You know how Ohio does it, so it was summer last week and it was spring today and it'll be winter tomorrow.

Speaker 2: 4:33

It's been nice, though, like you know, daylight savings time is what it is, but I do appreciate not coming home in the dark. So, at least for me, I've really enjoyed that benefit of walking out of work and it being light outside, and it's still being light for a little bit when I get home.

Speaker 1: 4:53

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:54

It's nice to watch the kids ride their bikes and do the fun stuff. Those are the simple, easygoing things that I enjoy.

Speaker 1: 5:02

Yeah, and I mean I kind of appreciate the little hitter and miss good weather days too. I mean I've gotten to bring the motorcycle out. Kids love going for a ride. It's interesting they went from like, oh, I don't like loud noises and the bike scares me, to like oh my gosh, can we go on a bike ride? It was great. So we did that. And then today of course it was in the 70s and then it rained and then it got to like tornado conditions in some places. But we got to do like a quick lap or two around the circle with each of our little kids and right as I was coming back the rain drop started falling. So it was like that's it.

Speaker 1: 5:48

And then by the time I put the bike away and went out to get in the car, it was like a full on downpour because I was just trying to go, like, pick up some groceries.

Speaker 1: 5:57

But anyway, I'm in life's great, I like it. I've been working a lot. I mean you guys heard me talk about that with Warren, got some stuff trying to get off the plate, clean up. But I don't know if I really feel like I'm working a lot. I mean, don't get me wrong, when I first come home I'm like yeah, I'm done, I'm about to quit my job, I'm so tired, I'm done. But as long as I get those little 20 minutes to kind of decompress and switch modes everything's good when I don't get those little 20 minutes, though I'd be having to apologize to Debbie.

Speaker 1: 6:43

I'm sorry, babe, I'm just tired and mad, but you know.

Speaker 2: 6:53

I think that what's really great about our relationship is we step up for the other one when we need to. I know I think that's good partnership. I've had to step away a lot lately and you have been 100% in and you're not complaining or Frustrated or anything like that. You're just like yep, no problem, I'll do the dishes, I'll handle the laundry, I'll step in. And Right now you're in a season where you're working more and so I'm like, don't worry about it, I'm gonna get crock-pot meals and I'm gonna, you know, do these things and I'm gonna clean on the weekend, and so I don't know. I am appreciative of the.

Speaker 2: 7:43

Your reciprocity of Knowing that sometimes it's not 50-50. I don't think marriage is 50-50, so at least not all the time. Yeah, yep.

Speaker 1: 7:54

I mean, but like I said, I just bad math are behind your back, I never. But so Besides you know, of course work, and besides kids, Mm-hmm. There's school, yep, and school Is Crescing the hill. We can see the other side. You can see it. You can see it, no, no no no, no, no no you're not ready for this.

Speaker 2: 8:24

Being ready and being able to see it, I think, are different things. So when you're in the trenches, you can't really see how close you are to the end. You know what I mean? It all looks dark right now, so you can't really see like I think about it, like um, when you're scooping the tunnel with a spoon and you don't really know how close you are to the other side.

Speaker 1: 8:43

Is that like a what? What is that?

Speaker 2: 8:47

What do you mean? What is that? Scooping the tunnel with a spoon like you're trying to dig out a tunnel, but you're doing it with a spoon. You don't have a whole shovel, so it's like really tiny.

Speaker 1: 8:54

I got you like there's some Shawshake. You thought it was like a prison break or something.

Speaker 2: 8:59

No, I really meant like you're trying to dig through and you can't. It's all dark right now, so you can't really see how close you are to.

Speaker 1: 9:11

Well, I could see the life for it. I'll be your spotter. I appreciate it.

Speaker 2: 9:15

No, I'm in it. I don't. I don't see the light.

Speaker 1: 9:17

I was driving down the highway the other day and I saw a billboard for the Shawshake Redemption Like tour of the old Mansfield Penitentiary. Yeah, I want to go see it. I want to go see it for, uh, podcast purposes. It's all research and, and you know, it's not fun.

Speaker 2: 9:36

It's not fun. I mean it's it's not fun, it's me going to see a prison.

Speaker 1: 9:40

Like been there, done that.

Speaker 2: 9:44

Seen it, lived it Um.

Speaker 1: 9:46

I want to see it because, um, for those of you who don't know, they have built a new Mansfield prison and they kind of shut down the old Mansfield Reformatory. Um, and it was shut down for a long time until somebody had the bright idea to use it for a movie location and so they filmed the famous movie, um, with uh, what's the guy who plays? God and everything morgan freeman.

Speaker 2: 10:15

I don't know any actors, look at me.

Speaker 1: 10:17

Everybody knows god. So, uh, morgan freeman was in the movie Shawshake Redemption, and they filmed it at the old Mansfield Reformatory.

Speaker 2: 10:27

Which kind of in ohio. We are in ohio, yes, in ohio.

Speaker 1: 10:30

And um, and it kind of like revitalized it as like a tourist location. And so now there's like billboards everywhere and they pay you to go to prison or you pay them to go to prison.

Speaker 2: 10:41

Yeah, they do the scary thing at the halloween time to.

Speaker 1: 10:45

Anyway, I worry about that. I'll say your least fave, you've never been to it.

Speaker 2: 10:50

I would never go either.

Speaker 1: 10:53

All right, um as far as books go.

Speaker 2: 10:56

Yeah, what you read in.

Speaker 1: 10:58

I haven't actually read a book In a while.

Speaker 2: 11:01

It doesn't mean physically, like what are you listening to reading my audible?

Speaker 1: 11:06

though, oh my goodness, listen, I'm tearing it up. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: 11:09

You know, I'm putting out a lot of miles and instead of just listening to music, I'm doing the audible thing. I'm listening to everything, man, like I've listened to the the art of war again. Um, I've listened to a whole lot of fiction like sci-fi, uh, fantasy fiction and man, thanks for audible plus, who were not sponsored by, but they definitely give you like some free here and here, mm-hmm. And man, I'm tearing up whole series of books. Man, there's one series I'm like. I'm like book 10. Wow.

Speaker 1: 11:48

But I ran out of free credit, so now I gotta wait Now.

Speaker 2: 11:53

I gotta wait a month or another free credit. The credits are like each books like $15-16 and I'm like I'll be damned when we share an account, so we share our credit.

Speaker 1: 12:04

I don't share anything.

Speaker 2: 12:05

I know you've been taking them all lately. You tell me I could.

Speaker 1: 12:09

If you want to retract that statement. I needed him writing.

Speaker 2: 12:13

I don't have time to listen to anything right now, so Needed in writing. Huh.

Speaker 1: 12:19

I sure do.

Speaker 2: 12:21

Um, for me, I am oh what? I'm not reading anything that's not First google, like it's not for a different purpose, like I'm not reading anything for fun, um, right now, because what is fun really, at the end of it?

Speaker 1: 12:42

But if you want a nerd out on here, feel free.

Speaker 2: 12:45

I don't, I can't, um, I can't pull that thread. I don't know, it's not there yet for me, so, um, I can't report back Until I figured out. So I will eventually, but, um, but what I'm watching is trash tv.

Speaker 1: 13:05

Same, thing, I call it trash tv.

Speaker 2: 13:08

My reward for writing is that I get to watch an episode of Love is Blind, which is a terrible reality show about nothing but drama. Um, it's a dating show on tv where you don't see each other. You just talk in these soundproof pods and fall in love and then propose sight unseen.

Speaker 1: 13:32

So this is like my space on tv. I Don't give it. Come on, man At. Like you, I ain't never fell in love with somebody on my space. You know them old chat rooms and stuff back in the day. Everybody know what I'm talking about. Trust me, if y'all over 25, y'all know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 2: 13:53

So love is blind. They just had the reunion episode, so I just I watched it. Now I'm out of tv to watch Um. So I have to think of a different thing to reward myself with, because I can go heavy into these topics and you know, research, all these things, and I got to balance that with some just Absolutely trash just nonsense, some completely random.

Speaker 1: 14:20

You know, when it comes to like nonsense tv, I want to watch um catfish, like I used to watch that in that house and that guy's there.

Speaker 2: 14:30

No, that's oh, that's how to catch a pretty.

Speaker 1: 14:33

Yeah, that's how I catch a pretty I'm sort of catfish is all about, like you know, meeting people online and they're not how they say they are, um, they have, like some famous people there, or two um Catfish I used to watch, and I used to watch what's the one? Um Like cheaters or something.

Speaker 2: 14:48

Oh, I don't know. Oh man, that was awesome. I really liked that really messed people's lives up. I really liked those completely staged and fake shows like Steve Wilkos and um Um, not Jerry Springer, but like more republics. Judge Judy, those types of yeah, just terrible, trash. Reality tv um is usually my binge when I'm not watching like a true crime or a documentary, yeah, I'll never forget, or the golden girl.

Speaker 1: 15:17

You know what I was saying? No names man. I'll never forget being like in prison watching judge joe brown and my ex-girlfriend was on there, one of my ex-girlfriends from like middle school or high school or something, I don't know. I think it was high school, like ninth grade, and she was crazy she was.

Speaker 2: 15:34

You've never told me this.

Speaker 1: 15:36

Oh, you ought to learn now, okay. So, um, this uh unnamed woman was 24 karat, crazy. Um, the whole way that I met her was because it was my first day of school, um, at a new school, and I was lost and I was late to class. And I come up the stairs and there's this dude. I got her like by the collar up against this locker and so naturally I run up and you know, just get the beating up dude. I ain't even asked no questions, I just get the whooping on me. And then I walked through class.

Speaker 1: 16:16

Well, after school there's this dude outside waiting for me and it's not the dude I beat up, it's her brother. And he's like yo, you was messing with my sister. I'm like, what are you talking about? And I don't even know nobody here. You know you got the wrong person. So I see this girl over there. She like, yeah, that's him. So, uh, I'm like dude. So I tell him what happened and he sighed with me and then we together going beat up dude again Because, like the fuck you was trying to do.

Speaker 1: 16:47

Well, so now me and dude hang out for a little bit, um, and I mean over the course of time, and eventually I end up like dating this sister they're crazy one. And it was only for like a month because she was like legit, like needed certification, and put away, um, but, um, even though that ended, and it was really like nothing to talk about, um, one day I'm watching judge joe brown and I see her on there and she's with his dude and, uh, he's suing her because she didn't keyed his car and busted windows and stuff. And I'm like man, I'm glad I ducked that one right. And uh, she's like, oh, man, but the reason she did is because he went off to college and she wasn't doing nothing with her life, and he was like yo, um, I want to see other people. And so she uh Saw his car and vandalized it.

Speaker 1: 17:48

The funny part, though, was that she was in court, like wagging her head and everything, like, yeah, I did it and I should have flattened this tires too. I'm like, oh my god, what are you saying? So judge joe brown said the funniest thing I've ever heard a judge say oh, I don't know, whatever. But he was like, oh, I understand now. You mad because he upgraded.

Speaker 2: 18:13

You a hood rat? Oh no.

Speaker 1: 18:17

She got so bad and she was like you a hood rat. I was like what the fuck how you call the judge a hood rat Like it was hilarious man.

Speaker 2: 18:28

I don't think I've ever seen anybody I Actually know in real life on Any of those shows oh man, I got a few.

Speaker 1: 18:36

I can tell you I ain't gonna do that. We got to get to an episode. That's right, um, but anyway, man trash tv. Kids work school. That's the life baby podcasting. Shout out to my dude, jacob. I don't know if he listening. I ain't gonna say no last names, but jacob just got out. Man, that was my dude, I'm happy for him.

Speaker 2: 18:57

Congratulations.

Speaker 1: 18:58

Congratulations.

Speaker 2: 18:59

Welcome home.

Speaker 1: 19:01

Um, it's a couple guys. I know that's uh in the process. You know they they still um Fighting for their chance. So we gonna, we gonna pray for them and keep them in our minds and thoughts and, uh, good luck anyway. Um, on to today's episode. This one was thought up by the beautiful, the lovely and the talented and the extraordinarily smart dj. Um, well, you're just uh, she does a lot of reading. Don't let her fool y'all that she ain't reading in her spare time. In the Infantismally small amount of spare time she got. She always like, babe, I read this article and sends it to me and I'm like when you have time to read an article.

Speaker 1: 19:46

I'm like I'm gonna read it to you, but anyway, um, it's about Um abuse of authority. Mm-hmm and law enforcement. Yeah, and so we have about 10 articles here and we're gonna cherry pick some information. We'll include the ones, um, in the show notes that we actually read from I'm die. I doubt we'll have time to cover them all.

Speaker 2: 20:08

Mm-hmm and so here's where we will pause and then get into our content.

Speaker 2: 20:14

I mean, uh, moment of silence and we're back so this kind of came to me as an episode topic when, um, well, first, I saw this article come out in february in columbus, ohio, and I I don't know I saw it happen and I was like we gotta, we gotta do something about it. And so the columbus dispatch is the one who put this article out and, um, it's about this police officer who is charged with federal drug crimes and laundering, and I'm gonna talk a little bit about the article here. But, um, when I read the title, I was just like I wonder how frequently this happens. I wonder how Often that we hear a lot about law enforcement. We've, um, the death of george floy happened in 2020 and and the murder I should say the the murder of george floyd by Minneapolis police happened in 2020 and it was one case of over a hundred Of instances of police brutality towards black individuals in 2020 by may, um, so that's an extraordinary figure.

Speaker 2: 21:35

So there's all kinds of these abuses of power that stick out to me, whether that's brutality, whether that is, uh, drug crimes that are perpetuated through Routine stops and doing your quote-unquote job as a police officer, but also in the corrections field, um, and it just there's this through line of these Um types of abuse of authority and these abuses of power within the legal system, and we don't have time to talk about each one today. Maybe there will be a part two of this episode, but I thought about it from the perspectives of lawyers who exploit clients, um within the judicial system, people who don't have money so then have to pay in other means, or in favors or in um you know Crime. And then I think about we've talked about I mentioned corrections officers, but also, um, there's just these instances of Power dynamics within these relationships that can get taken advantage of really easily. And so today I wanted to talk a little bit about law enforcement and police officers, but then I wanted to pivot and talk about corrections officers and the experiences of incarcerated individuals, um, who have these power differentials and power dynamics in play. Anything there, before I jump into the article itself.

Speaker 1: 23:00

Uh, no, but I mean I guess yes, uh, this is not uncommon. Um, I mean, like you just said, what, how many?

Speaker 2: 23:10

you say over a hundred or 200 of police brutality specifically, but we're going to talk about um An article that that talks about how many instances of misconduct happen.

Speaker 1: 23:21

All, right now.

Speaker 1: 23:23

She's just talking about, um, police right now, um, but you know this podcast is centered around incarceration, um, mostly.

Speaker 1: 23:32

And when you think police, you don't really, off the cuff, think of corrections officers or, uh, the judicial system as a whole. And Actually with police there's a lot more transparency Than it is with corrections, because with the police you can simply say, hey, uh, we want to see the body cam footage and you can file for a freedom of information act or something release and you can have that body cam footage fairly quickly, whereas with uh corrections officers like if there was an instance and there have been where let's say, um, an inmate was assaulted by a group of corrections officers and it was on video, like um, like, let's say it was on one of the institutional uh cameras, the security cameras, and you were, you were to say, hey, we want to see those videos they could plainly say no, because they would say it's a security threat to release the footage, because it would show the camera angles and all this other nonsense, you know when. Basically, it's just them covering their own ass and we're they're like oh, we'll look into it, don't worry about it.

Speaker 1: 24:51

Right you know, and so you know this is we're going to just get hit. Go ahead to the uh, the police example that you gave. But I just wanted to keep that in mind, like it's not the entirety of it, it's not just you know, traffic stops and stuff like that, um, so think a little more broadly.

Speaker 2: 25:14

Yeah, and so this specific article comes from the columbus dispatch. Uh, it was really a prud. And what am I saying? Produced, released, published, published. I was gonna get there.

Speaker 2: 25:29

Uh, um, this article was published in in february of 2024 and it talks about officer jule m Mefford, who was arrested on federal drug trafficking charges and money laundering, and so, basically, the nuts and bolts of the story is that this police officer, who had been employed with columbus division of police since 2011, was specifically charged with possession of five kilograms or more of cocaine and possession with intent to distribute.

Speaker 2: 26:03

At the time, um, he also had two additional counts of cocaine possession and uh intent to distribute, which was 500 grams or more, and money laundering, and that was enough for me to like be all in to read the rest of this Uh, which led me to this section, where this article basically details it's not just an officer who is Um buying and selling drugs.

Speaker 2: 26:29

It's an officer who, in searches, was illegally searching Homes that he they had been sent to, he had been sent to on drug crimes, and so he shows up without a search warrant or he knows the person's not there, like in the specific example they talk about. Uh, in the article. They're talking about a detached garage where they gained access to the garage, went in and searched it and removed, um, some of the kilograms of cocaine and then left the others there to be found when they came back with an actual search warrant. Um, so that's a big one, right? Because it's not just this component of Okay, you are having drugs and selling them, but also he is intentionally gaining access to properties that he suspects have drugs and taking some of it so the rest can be found, but then is taking possession of some of it to then resell. So completely abusing this role as an officer, gaining illegal access to properties and then taking drugs to then profit off of outside.

Speaker 1: 27:49

Like there's so many layers to that in and of itself, Right, and it says that one of the apartment complex employees gave him access to the garage, helped him gain access to it, so I'm sure he didn't do that just because he was trying to be, you know, helpful. I'm sure there was some type of intimidation factor or something there, or flexing that whole position of authority as a police officer. So I mean there's that's kind of disturbing on all kinds of levels.

Speaker 2: 28:21

Yep.

Speaker 1: 28:21

And when it comes to like the drugs themselves, it's like just leave just enough to get the charges we want and the rest is, like you know, pure profit, I guess.

Speaker 2: 28:32

Yes, and exactly what you're saying, with this intimidation and incidents prior to this. That happened in 2020. Again, this officer was investigating a drug trafficking operation with houses on I mean, I don't want to give all the way the geographical locations in Columbus for protection of other people but this indictment basically says that Mefford, this officer that we're talking about approached a suspect in their investigation and at a gas station and basically the person said to Mefford that there was cocaine in the house over on one of the drives along the way, and so Mefford went and took a bag of multiple kilograms of cocaine from one of the individuals that he was talking to to figure out where the drugs are, but then went to the house and took some of the other drugs, but again left some to then be found. And so there's I don't know these stories keep going on Like previous to that, one month before this replaced drugs that were found with fake cocaine so that he could take the real cocaine.

Speaker 2: 29:47

So there's just all of these instances, but in each of them there are these individuals involved who I'm sure, are scared right, they have possession of drugs or know about drugs, and that's intimidating. But you also have this police officer who is this quote unquote authority figure, and so you feel the need to comply and this intimidation component. And this is where the abuse of power comes in, from two levels. There's an abuse of power of these individuals and their rights right Gaining access to homes without search warrants, those kinds of things, but also an abuse of power believing that you are more elite than you are as an, the forcer of the law, and you talk about that a lot.

Speaker 1: 30:36

Yeah, it really bothers me when you see people exercise their rights and other people like give them shit for it.

Speaker 1: 30:50

Because my guilty pleasure is I watch a lot of videos online and I'm in this like group on Facebook called police the police, and it's where people record their like, traffic stops and stuff and they upload it. And it's always like some overly brazen cop who comes and just starts saying like what they're gonna do, and people are like no, and then they're like yes, I am. And these people are like well versed, like they do their research, and they're like no, according to this law and this subsection and this, and that you need X, y and Z, so if you can give me that, that'd be great. And then the officers are like oh, you're one of them, you know right. And then it's like they immediately get aggressive because they're getting resistance and and even other people, like other private citizens, are like oh man, they're crazy, you know, just like, if you don't got nothing to hide, just do it.

Speaker 1: 31:45

Yeah, if you're not guilty, what's the problem? And it's like that's the reason why there is this abuse of power, because you're used to people just laying down and forfeit their rights and you know, I'm not one of those like people that's going to go out there and like and you got to fight the power. But you know, at the same time it's like, um, when the cop comes up to you and you're not well versed in your rights and you don't want to exercise them, and a cop comes up and he's like hey, um, you're an employee at this apartment complex, I need you to let me in, you know. And you're like well, no, I can't. And he's like all right, well, I know that there's a drug trafficking ring going on and if you're standing in my way, I'm going to charge you as a complicit. And you're like whoa, you know, yeah, man, I can lock you up and give you a reef.

Speaker 1: 32:33

Oh, and that's 10 years mandatory. You like whoa, whoa. All right, man, let's just go over there. You know, yes, Like that's not unheard of, that happens a lot Like. Or, you know, trying to guilt you into it, Like, don't you want to?

Speaker 1: 32:43

be a good Samaritan, these drugs are on the streets and if you're protecting them and you're like whoa, whoa, whoa, nobody's protecting anybody, right, but I mean, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, nobody's protecting anybody you know, but I mean that's the tactics.

Speaker 1: 33:03

I mean we talked about this with scare tactics. It's like you know, you know something, I don't know anything. Well, if you don't, then go help me find them. And it's horrible, man, it is horrible and I understand that. You know there is a level of cunning that needs to be exercised by law enforcement to get results, but at the same time, there is also a high level of abuse of, you know, mental manipulation, of intimidation, you know, and sometimes just flat out thuggery. Thuggery. Thuggery, I'm serious.

Speaker 1: 33:48

I mean because listen all right so I told you I watched these videos a lot and I've also had a lot of interactions with police officers from my past life. So I know, because I always think in weird ways, immediately when my interactions with the police start, I start analyzing their body language, their tactics and everything. I recognize them so that I know what they're trying to use against me. As soon as police start talking to you, what do they do? The one that's talking to you is on this side and the other one walks around the other side of you and so you're like what the fuck are you doing over there? So as soon as you go to pivot, they pivot. They want to control the area. They want you to feel intimidated.

Speaker 1: 34:33

You know, if you invite them in your house, one of them is going to sit there and talk to you and one of them is going to start walking through your house. That's why I always say, like you know, walk out, talk to them outside, because as soon as they go in the house, that's an illegal search. As soon as you invite them in, oh, they can come up with any amount of reasons. So I saw this and it was suspicious. So whatever, but anyway, yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:59

And all of these are just examples of there's lack of oversight. Right and I think that that's have we talked on this podcast before about Columbus's task force now for police oversight, law enforcement oversight.

Speaker 1: 35:16

I don't think so.

Speaker 2: 35:17

So that is part of a new law that passed by voters, by the people in. I was at last year, two years ago. It's very recent and it's so now. People who are advocates and activists and, you know, judges and all kinds of folks are on this. I don't know if it's called a task force, but it's like this law enforcement oversight committee that investigate these exact things, these pieces of misconduct, and so I'll try to talk a little bit more about that at the end and pull up some information.

Speaker 2: 35:50

But really, what I wanted to highlight with this article is that this is not unique, like you just said, remy, that these pieces of the puzzle happen frequently. We just don't know or hear about them a lot. I think it's becoming more common with social media. Everything seems to be recorded. People are recording their interactions more now and body cam footage is like a must in most stops, so those things help.

Speaker 2: 36:18

But when I read this article in particular about Mefford and planting drugs, taking drugs, coercing people into giving him drugs who he had stopped, and you know, all on duty, it's this clear abuse of I am an authority figure and I'm going to use that position to get what I want, but I also, in some case, some regard, feel like I can get away with it. Like I feel like as an officer of the law, I can get away with that a little bit because there's an intent again to distribute and profit off of that. It doesn't talk about whether or not he was using anything, but it does very clearly talk about this intent to distribute, so I think that that's really noteworthy. Were you going to say something there? I'm sorry.

Speaker 1: 37:09

No, I was just thinking. The factor that is probably overlooked is that if you're stealing drugs to sell drugs, it means that you're probably picking and choosing what criminals you're going to prosecute and you're letting other criminals go because otherwise you have no pipeline for your drugs. That's true, that's true. But I'm stealing kilos of coke. We're talking about bricks. We're talking about a lot of cocaine, a huge value per kilo. You're not just like going out on the beat and selling that rock by rock yourself. You got to be If you got kilos. You're probably selling kilos to people that then go and sell it on the street. So we're not talking about dime bags and grams of cocaine that somebody goes and snips in the bathroom. We're talking about bricks, large quantities. I mean, listen, I've been out the game for a while, but kilos of cocaine were like damn, their 30 grand per kilo. So we're talking about a yearly salary here in one theft no-transcript.

Speaker 2: 38:31

Yeah, to kind of put this in a broader perspective, I wanted to talk about cases of police misconduct, law enforcement misconduct and like talk about what they happen most often, for what percentages, those kinds of things. So to do that, I wanted to first go back to a comment that you made about, you know, in access versus private systems and stuff that corrections has. While police in most states are public entities, their misconduct records are not necessarily. And so sure, you could request body cam footage. But it isn't a clear cut answer and if you were actually going to get it.

Speaker 2: 39:20

So I found this article from the AP and it has this analysis of policemen, misconduct records and laws in all 50 states and what it basically outlines in each individual states is who has completely open access to those public records and what states don't. So, for example, alabama is a restricted state. Police disciplinary records are available to the public, but agencies can require that requesters state the reason for their request and can deny based on whatever their reason is. So that's really interesting, I think. Another one is Ohio is an open access state, pretty much, so I was surprised a little by that. It says Ohio is mostly public and it says law enforcement misconduct records are available to the public in Ohio you just have to put in a public records request and so there are all 50 states on this list. But several states are restricted. New Jersey, new Mexico are both restricted states and you can make requests again similar to Alabama but depending on your reason for requesting, it doesn't mean that you get access to that. The attorney general is actually the ones who get to make that decision, which I think is really interesting. So it's not as open and shut as oh, the police are public entities so we should have access to any of their records.

Speaker 2: 40:57

If you are the individual that has experience, that, that's different or you're trying to make a complaint, but if it's actually trying to find out about specific misconduct, that is much more difficult to find, which is why, when I went to this USA Today article, I was really shocked at how low this number was. But then, as this article and the AP and several other sources go on to say, yes, we can look at 85,000 cops who have been investigated for misconduct and we can read these records, but they're really hard to source. So 85,000 is the number we have access to. That is not representative of how much is going on across all 50 states, correct. So in this USA Today article, like I said, 85,000 records is what this article in particular analyzes and polls in terms of what it is they can point out for misconduct.

Speaker 2: 41:59

Amongst the findings, here are three big points. Most misconduct involves routine infractions, but the records reveal tens of thousands of cases of serious misconduct and abuse. This includes 22,924 investigations of officers using excessive force, 3,145 allegations of rape, child abuse, molestation and or other sexual misconduct and 2,300 cases of domestic violence by officers. The second dot point is that dishonesty is a really frequent problem. So amongst this analysis, what USA Today was able to find among this 85,000, was that roughly 2,200 of those instances were for perjury or tampering with evidence or witnessing or falsifying reports, which is exactly what we're talking about with Mefford in Columbus, is replacing drugs with fake drugs or tampering with the scene and taking some home. Where all of those pieces fall within this tampering with evidence, falsifying reports, etc.

Speaker 1: 43:05

Or even like one officer shows up on the scene and he's there by himself.

Speaker 1: 43:11

By the time backup comes, he's giving them what happened and even if they witness something different, they'll all. Okay, let's cooperate our story so we can put it down in our reports. That happens all the time. This was probably around like 2018 when I was up in Akron, but there was a story about a cop Akron cop who had like a man I can't remember. All I remember is that he had like almost 300 complaints filed against him that year and not one of them resulted in him being out of commission. He wasn't on dust duty, he wasn't punished or anything, and yet somehow it got to the point where he ended up doing something really bad.

Speaker 1: 44:10

I know there was a video. Something was happening. I think he was trying to arrest this lady's son and she came out trying to defend her son and he like beat this lady up and it's all on video and everything. And of course he's got that brazen attitude of like I am the law and she's just trying to figure out, like why the fuck are you putting a hand on my son? And of course she was animated and she was like emotional and kind of yelling, but I mean the response didn't really fit the situation and it got to the point to where, like it's broad daylight, it's out in public, and I mean, people see this happening.

Speaker 1: 44:54

So now people are coming over there and now he's feeling like he has to defend himself against these other people. So now it's one of those things where you know police like to say like oh, I feared for my life, but this is clearly a situation that he created. And it just kind of blew my mind that you can have almost 300 complaints against you and still be out doing your job in public.

Speaker 2: 45:19

Well, that's what I was just about to say. This last point, I think, speaks volumes and here's how it reads. So I want to read it specifically from the article and then we can kind of talk about it. But it says less than 10% of officers in most police forces get investigated for misconduct. Yet some officers are consistently under investigation. Nearly 2,500 have been investigated on 10 or more charges. 20 faced 100 or more allegations, yet kept their badge for years. And so I read this less than 10% in most public or most police forces get investigated for misconduct. I think you could read that two ways. One is less than 10% of officers are committing misconduct and thus don't get investigated because they're not committing anything. Or less than 10% of officers in most police forces get investigated for misconduct because they just don't get investigated. It's a lack of oversight, but there are more than 10% committing it. Like I think there are two ways to interpret that and the dot point is vague, but it goes on.

Speaker 2: 46:26

The article goes on to talk about exactly that oversight that varies from state to state in terms of how states have policies in place to deal with misconduct of their police forces. For example, georgia and Florida decertified thousands of police officers for everything from crimes to questions about their fitness to serve, and other states banned almost none, like Maryland. They had an over a decade. Maryland only decertified four officers in 10 years. And in Minneapolis, of course, where officer Derek Chauvin murdered George Floyd, seven officers have been decertified since 2009. So there are really vast spectrums, I guess, of what oversight looks like and how investigation of those things happen. And I think Reverend Al Sharpton said it really well at Floyd's Feudal, actually in 2020. And you know, I think this quote sticks. But he says until the law is upheld and people know they will go to jail, they're going to keep doing it because they are protected by wickedness in high places.

Speaker 1: 47:50

Yeah, and I also wanted to circle back and say, like that officer that had almost 300 complaints against him, like you said, it's less than 10% that are actually investigated. So just because the complaints were documented don't mean anybody actually looked into it, right?

Speaker 2: 48:11

And that's why I was saying, with that dot point, right, it could be less than 10% get investigated, because less than 10% need to be investigated or it could be because there's lots of allegations and people are still keeping their badges, even with these reports existing, and that's the piece.

Speaker 2: 48:31

I think that's hard to discern because every state is different in terms of, a their oversight, but also B their misconduct. Transparency there is a lack of transparency to the public, but the public and taxpayers are who fund police forces in most states. I can't speak for all states, right, but that's how it works here. So there is a level of obligation to be transparent with the people you are quote sworn to serve and protect. Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 1: 49:17

No, I don't even remember what I was going to say.

Speaker 2: 49:22

Okay, so I think that's all I really wanted to say. With law enforcement, I just really wanted to point out that this is probably the most common type of misconduct, type of abuse of power that we can think of in terms of the judicial system, but that it happens all over the place. So I wanted to start there because I feel like that's a commonality, like that's a thread that people can pick up pretty easily and be like I see examples of this. I think it's important that we say I would hope people know this, but we're not down on law enforcement or I'm down on the bad ones.

Speaker 1: 50:03

I'm going to be straight up.

Speaker 2: 50:05

No, I agree, but I don't want the perception to be.

Speaker 1: 50:10

Yeah, yeah, we're not like anti-cop man.

Speaker 2: 50:12

And I don't think that all cops are bad, but I think that bad cops make it really hard to trust any cops, at least from the perspective of individuals who are stopped by police more frequently and more biased than others.

Speaker 1: 50:29

Right, there was a video in one of those police to police groups where the guy was doing a first amendment audit and that's basically like they just go and stand out in public and wait for the police to come and talk to them and they record it. And so this guy in particular, he was like this real skinny Hispanic guy and he had on cargo shorts and a wife beater, you know tank top and he had a GoPro strapped to his chest and he had one in his hand and he stood outside the sheriff's department and he was just like over across the street from where, like the parking lot where they park other cars and I mean it's public, there's a lot of like people walking by and stuff. And then all of a sudden you see this cop come out and this dude looks like the rock, Like he's built, you know, and he's like hey, what are you doing? You know, let me see some ID. And the guy's like no, I don't have to show you ID, I'm not doing anything. He's like, Well, what are you doing out here? He's like I'm just filming for a story, I'm a journalist. And so the guy demands like to see, like confiscate his video cameras. He's like no.

Speaker 1: 51:45

And next thing, you know, like five or six more officers come out and totally surround this dude and they got on like bulletproof vests and tactical gear and like at least three or four of them had their hands on their gun. And the dude's like why are you guys here? And he tells the one dude like Amen, don't stand behind me. Like he keeps moving, trying to put his back against the wall. And the guy that's talking to him was like hey, man, why are you acting so funny Like he's? Like you got to understand that it's my job to make sure that this area is safe, because you're acting funny and stuff, and I'll never forget that. Just do say that something. That was like just totally profound.

Speaker 1: 52:30

And he was like hey, listen, man, this area was really safe until six dudes with their hands on their gun showed up for one guy in cargo shorts and a tank top, and so he was like so what's your name? And the guy, like the cops, refused to give them them give him their names. And so he was like Well, you're the supervisor, right? Why are you sitting here letting this guy like not identify himself? And the supervisor, like he realizes like he was a sergeant and he realizes like, oh fuck. So he's like, hey, give me your name.

Speaker 1: 53:10

But it's like he starts going on with his name and his badge number and stuff. But it's like the supervisor was right there, ready to play a part in that and ready to let his subordinate totally disregard the policy and the law, and they were totally willing to intimidate this guy into doing something that he did not have to do and then eventually they all just ended up walking back inside with like nothing. This guy totally like kicked their ass as far as you know, you know upholding his rights. But I mean, it just goes to show, like those situations where if you're not willing to put yourself in that position and you're willing to just like go along and do whatever just because you want the situation to go away, you can find yourself in any type of bad situation.

Speaker 2: 54:05

Absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1: 54:08

Once again, sorry if you guys hear the rumble in the background while we're recording. I told you like the weather kind of got a little iffy and so it's kind of really bad wind outside and thundering. So sorry about that, but we are safe and we have been checking on our family. So if you heard the phones vibrating and stuff while we're recording, sorry about that too, but you know families all checking in.

Speaker 2: 54:38

Yeah, and so I think for our next episode we should pivot and really dive into a lesser known kind of abusive power, which is that of corrections officers. And again, I mean I think you made a really good point of this at the beginning that this operates on a completely different type of system, whereas law enforcement agencies are public entities and so there's a little more leniency, even though corrections facilities are largely funded by states, at least here in Ohio and you're more public than private prisons in the United States. Public does not mean transparent, and I think that we're going to see a lot of that when we come back next week to talk about what it means to abuse power as a corrections officer and what that power differential as an incarcerated individual looks like and how that's a little bit different than being able to exercise your right as a citizen like who's free in the world and can do things like stand out in front of the police station and feel safe enough to do that. Incarcerated folks don't necessarily have that same opportunity.

Speaker 1: 55:57

Right, Especially like you know out here. I mean, you have that interaction and, assuming you make it through it on skates, you go home and you may or may not ever see that officer again, Whereas incarcerated it's like that person can repeatedly, day in and day out, make your life miserable.

Speaker 2: 56:18

Yeah, you know and it's not to say that all interactions are safe with police at home. We know the disproportionality that exists and how many interactions just feel unsafe, even in being a free citizen of the world, but just thinking about how that's compounded by being incarcerated is next level. So we want to make sure we spend some dedicated time there to talk about that, and that's why we're going to end our time together here this week and then pick up with a part two where we go in deep, and that's it.

Speaker 1: 56:56

That's it. Hope you guys followed all of that and I hope that you either learn something new or at least enjoy the conversation. Thanks for being a part of this. I appreciate you guys tuning in and, as always, feel free to hit us up on social media on Facebook, the Lockdown Legacy podcast, anywhere else IG, linkedin, twitter, x, whatever and our website Lockdown Legacy. So please also email if you're one of those old fashioned people.

Speaker 2: 57:35

Email, old fashioned now.

Speaker 1: 57:37

It very much is oh, okay, at stories, storieslockdownluxycom. So anyway, thank you all again, and thank you, dj, for being a part of this as well. Ooh, big rumbles. All right, we're out, peace, bye.

Speaker 2: 57:58

The Lockdown to Legacy podcast is proud to be a part of the Buzzsprout podcast community network. Lockdown to Legacy is recorded at co-hatch in their lovely audiophile room. Thanks for your scholarship. Audio engineering is done by our very own Remy Jones. You can reach us with any feedback, questions, comments or share the love by emailing stories at lockdown, the number two Legacycom stories at lockdown to Legacycom. You can reach out there too for a free sticker, and you can find us on Instagram and Twitter with the handle at Lockdown to Legacy and on Facebook at the Lockdown to Legacy podcast. Thanks for listening.