Warren's Wisdom: The Value of Getting Involved

Have you ever wondered what seeds of potential lie dormant behind the walls of prisons? Together with my inside correspondent, Warren, we take you through a raw and powerful exploration of the American prison system, revealing how incarceration can become a crucible for transformation. Our special guest, Warren, lends his voice direct from inside the Institution, sharing the peaks and valleys of pursuing self-improvement and initiating programs from the inside.

We peel back the curtain on the silent battles and victories of life in confinement, discussing the paradox of solitude amidst an era of incessant connectivity. From the therapeutic escape of educational pursuits to the discipline of vocational training, the stories we share illuminate the resilience of the human spirit. We delve into the ripple effect of personal development in prison, where the quest for knowledge and leadership not only shapes individual futures but also has the potential to redefine family trajectories and societal reintegration.

As our conversation unfolds, the theme of mentorship emerges as a lifeline in an ocean of adversity. We reveal how the courage to seek guidance—and the grace to offer it—can carve paths where once there were only walls. Wrapping up with reflections that transcend the prison experience, this episode stands as a testament to the enduring power of human connection, the relentless pursuit of growth, and the legacies that can be built, even from the confines of a cell.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:19

Welcome to Lockdown to Legacy stories from the inside out. I'm your host, remy Jones.

Speaker 2: 0:25

And I'm co-host Debbie Jones. We are a husband and wife team here to bring you the real life stories, experiences and questions around the American criminal justice system. We do advise discretion with this podcast. I think we should put that out there first and foremost. Yes, we are going to talk about experiences that happen inside the prison system, outside of prison systems. We will use language that might be offensive, but we intend to keep it real. And if that's not for you, we totally understand, but please do what's best for your listening ears.

Speaker 1: 0:56

Oh, we're about to keep it real, son. Our goal of this podcast is to share the inside realities of the American prison and criminal justice system, from precharges all the way to post-release, from the voices of those who've experienced it firsthand, including me.

Speaker 2: 1:12

That's right, we're going to get into it.

Speaker 1: 1:33

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Lockdown the Legacy. I'm your host, remy Jones, and this will be another warrants wisdom episode, so I look forward to having that call with our friend Warren. It's kind of a deep conversation, man, but any of you guys who've been listening for a while know that that's our regular man. That's our thing is deep conversation to philosophical guys who just get to kind of kick the ball back and forth. So of course we go down the rabbit hole and the subject was kind of planned but it developed into its own thing and so what we wanted to talk about was the value of getting involved. We talked about college and prison, we talked about vocations and trades and stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 2:24

But it just kind of dawned on me I didn't want to give the wrong impression to you guys that there's not stuff available in a good way, like there could be a lot more, and for the most part it is very much on the individual to pursue this stuff and in some ways you know it's like, yeah, that's how it should be, but at the same time there's not a lot of teaching or giving the information of what you don't know.

Speaker 1: 2:52

You know, if you don't know it's available, then of course you're not seeking it out. So there are a lot of programs and most of them, or at least a lot of them, are started by inmates and they're very valuable. I myself did participate in a lot of them and Warren actually not only participated but actually created some of them. So, you know, here's the conversation with Warren and his call, and, you know, feel free to give your feedback on what you think and if you have any, any suggestions for stuff that we left out, you know, or other stuff that you might be curious about. All right, so stay tuned and thanks for listening.

Speaker 3: 3:43

This is a prepaid debit call from Warren, an inmate at the Graffin Correctional Institution. To accept this call. Press zero to refuse this call. Hang up or press one to prevent calls from this. This call is from a DRC correctional facility and is subject to monitoring and recording. Utilization of an unapproved application and three-way calls to communicate are strictly prohibited and a violation of DRC policy.

Speaker 2: 4:13

Thank you for using GTL.

Speaker 1: 4:16

What's up, bro? What's up bro. I'm all right, man. How are you? I'm doing pretty good.

Speaker 3: 4:24

I had a pretty good day today, so, yeah, everything seemed to be moving in a good direction for me.

Speaker 1: 4:30

I'm glad to hear. I'm glad to hear because you know we ain't just, you know, setting caught up in a while. So I'm glad to hear that it's all going well. Things are going pretty smooth over here. You know, no bad news is good news as far as I'm concerned.

Speaker 3: 4:45

You said it's good news as far as you're concerned, as far as everything going good over there, yeah, no bad news.

Speaker 1: 4:51

No bad news is good news to me. No bad news great news. You know I had a pretty chill work week there. Kids all doing well. Yeah, I ain't got, I got no stresses right now, very minor stresses that I can deal with forever as long as I'm concerned. Yeah, oh, I don't know if I told you, but you know we did that A whole 30 thing for the 30 days, did I?

Speaker 3: 5:26

Yeah, I remember you telling me about that.

Speaker 1: 5:27

Yeah, we both lost like 20 and 22 pounds. Wow, 30 days, no added workout Wow.

Speaker 3: 5:37

So is it going to be an ongoing thing, or are you going to you like I'm cool?

Speaker 1: 5:41

So for DJs it's got to be an ongoing thing for a while, like slowly reintroduce certain stuff just to see where you know, think she might have an allergy or something to. So we got to kind of figure that out, narrow it down. But for me I just felt like I felt so much better after doing it that I don't really need that stuff. I mean, it's a lot of stuff that I'll probably just not pick back up, like all the, you know, the added sugar and all the processed stuff and maybe even some dairy. Like cut back on that a lot. Yeah, like I might not go strictly without it, but as far as I'm concerned I don't need it.

Speaker 3: 6:26

That ain't going to hurt you less than anything.

Speaker 1: 6:28

Right, and now that I know I can go without it like 100%, you know what's the harm in cutting back 80%?

Speaker 3: 6:36

Yeah, I know Christine was telling me a lot that a lot of times. When she said, well, I said, well, I'm eating what are you eating? I said, well, I'm eating the noodles and some fish. And she said you can't just keep eating noodles and fish. And so recently I've been starting to buy real, real food peas and green, green beans and things like that and I was like my, my thing is not that I don't want to eat it, it's the parent part that I'm particularly careful. You know you should do this real quick.

Speaker 1: 7:15

Four minutes, I'm done. I had a um when I was over there in a C one I had a bunkie that everybody thought was the weirdest dude ever and he was perfectly normal in my eyes, man. But the reason why they thought he was weird is because he had a plate and a fork and he only ate like rice and green beans and fish, like he prepared it and put it all on a plate separately and ate it with a fork. And people was like man, you're a monkey, weird, I'm like bro, that is normal as hell. My only question is where the fuck did he get this fork at Right?

Speaker 3: 8:01

Well, they thought that I was crazy because, um, they, they was passing out, uh, hot cocoa during the, during the winter, because, you know, being a normal, they do a lot of different things here. And they said we'll bring your cup down and I go, I don't own a cup. And they said what I said I don't own a cup. They said why don't you own a cup? I said, well, I don't drink hot beverages. First of all, I say, and I drink water, but I drink water, I don't drink the water bottle. They sell water here, Cause that's why I just I just drink, I drink water, bottle water, so there's no need for me to own a cup. And they thought that was the strangest and weirdest thing, that I don't own a cup.

Speaker 1: 8:43

Put them.

Speaker 3: 8:43

I don't put it in the cup. I drink my water out of the bottle. I don't drink hot beverages and very seldomly do I drink a soda, and a soda comes right in the can, so I just drink it right off the can.

Speaker 1: 8:54

I mean that just goes to show that institutionalism is real and even for, like, even for the staff.

Speaker 3: 9:04

Possibly. Yeah, and that's. I think that's one of the problems that I noticed about being locked up is because we always get the worst and most extreme version and understanding of what institutionalization looks like and we don't think of the more minor ways that we've been institutionalized and so let's point it out to you oh, that's being institutionalized as well. And then, because a lot of us are institutionalized, I think the I think anyone who served over five years in prison, if maybe three, is institutionalized in some form or fashion.

Speaker 1: 9:49

For sure, 100%.

Speaker 3: 9:52

Be here because others, but definitely institutionalized Because the numbers say it. Studies have shown that individuals, when you get locked up, it takes you 18 months to become acclimated to the prison environment, but if you do more than 18 months, it takes you at least three years to become re-acclimated to society.

Speaker 1: 10:18

I can understand that. I don't see that.

Speaker 3: 10:19

How does it take you double the time being in here, that it takes you to get used to being in prison?

Speaker 1: 10:25

Well, you know, that's the way it is with anything almost really Like when it comes to habits, addictions, anything like that. You can form an addiction or a bad habit way easier and quicker than you can break it. Right? Because breaking it, you have to not only just stop doing it, but you also have to replace it, which is interesting because when you form the bad habit or addiction, you never think about what it replaces, right? But you know, I believe that wholeheartedly, man, because I mean, we talked about this a lot.

Speaker 1: 11:11

I first came home and you know my mom was like, just take some time to chill, just like go hang out with your like find your old friends. And like I was like nope, like first off, there's people that I've had every opportunity to get in contact with that I intentionally did not, because I told my mom I was like man, I don't want the opportunity to create any bad habits or to lose any discipline that I've created in my life. So what I did was I knew I was institutionalized, but I actually embraced it and allowed it to become a big boon for me. You know, like I literally told people this like I'm already used to not being around my family, I'm already used to not owning, you know, a lot of accumulated, you know, material items. I'm already used to not having a lot of money, so I can, you know, make it stretch further. You know I was like so what I'm going to do is I'm going to get in this truck and I'm going to just go. I'm used to being in the gym three hours a day. I'm used to, like, you know also, you know, taking five college classes at a time and playing all these, you know whatever to fill my day.

Speaker 1: 12:36

So I got in the truck and was working like man I don't recommend this for anybody, but I got in the truck and was working like 15 hour days, five days a week, you know. And I just saved my money, dude, like other than my car. Like I paid my car off super quick. I paid my motorcycle off super quick, like both of them in like a year or less.

Speaker 1: 12:58

But I was shopping for clothes at Sam's Club, like the same place. I got my groceries to pack my lunches and stuff on the road. I was over there like I'm going to get these t-shirts and I'm going to get these jeans. These are like some good jeans, you know. And people was like this is like a fry, yeah. So I mean, even if it's not like the, you know what society makes you think is the version of stereo, of institutionalized, where you like bat shit crazy or something Like there is certain stuff that it sticks to you. You know, like for the longest man, I remember feeling like something was missing, like I was forgetting something. Right, and it was because I didn't have count three times a day.

Speaker 3: 13:51

You didn't have what.

Speaker 1: 13:52

I didn't have count three times a day, wow. So at certain times of the day it's not that it was like I was like fucked up about it, but I would just get this weird feeling like like damn, did I forget something? Like am I forgetting? Damn, I get to checking my pockets and everything. Man, like damn, I forget something. I feel like I'm forgetting something. Oh, it's four o'clock, you know. So it was just weird, man. It was weird, but I made sure I didn't allow it to interfere with my life and I know that in there, especially being around it all the time, that was normal, you know. So I could understand why people was like man, you're a funky weird. It's because they've been needing out of Tupperware with a spork for, you know, eight years.

Speaker 3: 14:38

Right, but it's interesting how we are institutionalized in the institution by doing different things, like some people, institutionalized through their religion, but they are, you know, we call them Bible bumpers. Some people are institutionalized by working out all day long. That's all they do, they eat and they out as workout. Or you become institutionalized the way I have, the way I have been, and that's through educating myself, because I knew, I always felt that I didn't know enough. I always felt that I was behind, I always felt inadequate, and so what I started doing was I never wanted to be in front of people and sound stupid. I never wanted to be put into a situation where I didn't know.

Speaker 3: 15:34

And the strange thing is being around a lot of white dudes.

Speaker 3: 15:38

They already had this stigma that black dudes were stupid anyway, and so any chance they got to correct you on improper grammar or any time they got a chance to show that they were just a little bit more intelligent, they would take advantage of that.

Speaker 3: 15:55

Unless they were just scared, you was going to beat them up and I noticed that I enjoyed it so much that I started accelerating extremely fast by learning, because my mind processes a lot of information extremely fast and it retains it and I thought, using examples in order to hold on to it.

Speaker 3: 16:21

So now, while I'm at now, I've kind of outpaced a lot of individuals who I'm around and I'll paste a lot of my family members, and it's like trying to swim somewhere and then you realize you're in the middle of the ocean by yourself and you can't really relate to anyone that you talk to, you can't really relate to the individuals who you're around, but there's always this deep-seated feeling of being alone. And that's not unusual for me because I've spent years being alone, physically alone. I've spent years in the whole, so in a cell by myself, when you had other people being noisy. But I'm comfortable being by myself to the point of I feel more natural being around myself, being around other people. And I know all of this is antisocial behavior, I know it's antisocial thinking, I understand all of that, but this is another way that I've become institutionalized, within the normal ways of being institutionalized.

Speaker 1: 17:31

But you know what, though? You know what.

Speaker 3: 17:34

I have no problem staying away from people.

Speaker 1: 17:37

That was like a preference for me, but I don't understand as part of my being institutionalized as well, but that's one of the things that you can take and make a positive characteristic, because I'm the same way. I prefer to not be around people, and, of course, you could say that's a residual from prison, which really I didn't hang around too many people before prison. I always had a circle about three or less. That is a quality that is super lacking in society today. There are not too many people that can just be content with being alone. I mean, that's that social media. This is the social media era. Everybody got to feel liked, they got to feel like somebody's paying attention to them, and all this other stuff where it's like you leave me alone for a while, watch me work, man, because I'm about to you know my mind get to going. I'm going to do some of my best work uninterrupted. I mean, hell, I might just be lazy, who knows? But I will love it. But you know what, though? Oh, I'm sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 3: 18:56

I would say, even when I tell people I don't really watch the news and they like, well, why don't you watch the news? I said. I didn't say I don't watch news. I said I don't really watch the news, like I don't. I'm not obsessed with seeing the news every single day. I can get a wrap up of the news. Generally they're going to be playing the same thing, especially like local news. They're going to show you the same, the same story, like three or four times in a week. World news I can read a little ticker or I can catch. I can catch the world news maybe Wednesday and the news is not really moving that much from day to day, but there are people who watch it every single day. We have a station is just because we do. We get Fox news or we get CNN, oh, fox news is the worst, honey.

Speaker 3: 19:43

And they will sit there and watch Fox news and see it in all day long. Now, only a small portion of these broadcast news is about actual news. The rest of it is about commentary what people think about the news, how they feel about the news and all the other stuff like that One.

Speaker 1: 20:01

so called expert or another. They become obsessed with this. Yeah, I said one or another so called experts giving their opinion Right.

Speaker 3: 20:12

And they become. They become obsessed with this and I tell them, like I like movies, but I don't I don't really watch the news that often. But for a lot of people that like, well, I'm keeping up with what was going on in the world, yeah, but you don't have to do that 24 hours a day, you want to do that every single day. The world, the world's not changing that much like that to where you need to be involved or concerned about it.

Speaker 1: 20:34

Right, I want to circle back to something you said earlier, though, when you were talking about, like religion and some of the other things that people kind of get institutionalized in. So, actually, I wanted to talk about today the value of getting involved, you know, inside of prison, and you know we talked about, like trades and college and stuff like that, and we talked about the value of having a routine in prison, right, but there's so much more that's available inside there. Don't get me wrong. There's a whole lot lacking, but I mean, like myself, I've been a part of some things. I know you've done a whole lot of things, and I just made a small list of some of the things that I was kind of using as examples. So we both did the Braille, braille program until they shut it down, right, and that was huge. I mean I'm talking about stuff that, even if it doesn't give you a certificate or anything like that, like it's a skill that you can take to the outside world. We were both into JC's.

Speaker 2: 21:46

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:48

And even though I didn't really take that as far as I could have, I mean, weren't you like up there in like the president or something like that yeah Y'all's the president.

Speaker 1: 21:59

Yeah, and that's real life skills Like that is stuff that when you get out here and you want to know, like how it works at the upper levels of you know government or you know a company or something that you want to get involved and you know that those processes and how that stuff works, that is exceptional because, like you said, you don't ever want to be in a situation where you know you feel like you're the dumbest one in the room. That's something that they do not expect you to know. That's right, that's right.

Speaker 3: 22:32

I started Iron Road in Ashland today and that's actually what I'm trying to get my bachelor's degree in, the bachelor's in science and leadership and that's what she explained to bachelor's degrees about. It's about teaching you how to go into company and helping the workforce become more efficient, and she did this. This degree will help you. You just go from company to company, learn how to do that. That kind of fits in my wheelhouse, because I was certified as a life coach and then I got I'm going to be a transformational coach, but I'm a teacher. This is what I do all day.

Speaker 3: 23:10

I just me and Queenie just created a handbook for how people can learn how to have meaningful parole hearings, because there's nothing in the system teaching us the language and what's necessary in order to gain a parole. One of the things that I've learned about, like you said, being involved. A lot of us are involved in frivolous things that don't mean anything. We take a lot of programs, we get involved with a lot of things, but none of them are helping us achieve the one thing that almost every single person in prison wants, and that's freedom. It's not helping us towards our release. We go to the parole board with like 40 programs and only two of them it deals with the risk factor that brought us to prison.

Speaker 1: 24:00

But outside of that, though, I think that it also takes a paradigm shift of understanding and like, when you do the program, it's one thing to be in there like man, I'm just in this so I can get the certificate. But I knew a lot of dudes that were only in the JC's because they got to be a part of certain fundraisers Boy, they got family days. Yeah, you get a family day, and so when you look at it like that, it's a lot of it that goes over your head. You didn't get the message. But when you go in there, understanding like, okay, this is how things operate and this is how I can get stuff done, let me learn as much as I can, then you walk away with a whole different list of benefits.

Speaker 1: 24:56

There's other programs too. Like I did the MoneySpark program in there. Do they still got that? Yeah, they still got MoneySpark. That's a good program and I don't know how much guys are really getting out of it, but I mean they giving real game in that program. I know there was another one I don't know if it was MoneySpark or if it was another one where they were like teaching about the land, banking stuff.

Speaker 3: 25:23

Yeah, that was a dude, as he ran out on his own.

Speaker 1: 25:27

But yeah, I mean, that's great a game man. You come home, get involved in this land, bank all the hood housing and all that stuff. I know dudes that have really cleaned their life up was big time dope boys and now they like oh no, I got a whole property portfolio and stuff. My one homeboy, he bought his first property up in Lorraine and it was like a triplex. He bought it for like $7,000.

Speaker 3: 25:56

Do you remember a couple of weeks ago, you and I were talking and you had said you had a shift in your thinking. When I became a week? Yeah, and I remember you and I were talking to one. I always bring up the conversation we had when I was like I'm just going out there to try to survive. You're like I want to go out there and live these. These is what you call it your paradigm shifts. A lot of people don't have this, this, this, that shift. When I was in NA the other day.

Speaker 3: 26:30

A guy has said we have to mature in our manhood.

Speaker 3: 26:35

There's not a lot of people working on maturing in their manhood because the only thing they're focused on, focusing on, is getting out.

Speaker 3: 26:43

That's the main thing that they care about is I do not want to be in prison, and they focus so much on wanting to get out. They're not, they're not, they're not dealing with the things, the factors that brought them into prison to help them get out. That was the reason why I brought up, brought up, brought up with the things about the parole board and that even those who don't have to see the parole board, there has to come a point in your life where you say I want to see the best version of myself. I want my family to be affected by the best version of myself. I won't rest until I see the best version of myself, because the way I am right now no longer cuts it. I feel like until you get to, until you get to that point, all of these classes, all the help, all the assistance people give you in here, or all the help and assistance you'll get out, there is not going to be anything.

Speaker 1: 27:43

No, and I feel like the average person in prison. They think about freedom, of course, all the time. When I get out, when I get out, when I get out, that's all they think about. Of course, I'm not saying everybody, but I could say the majority and be sure that. But there's certain elements that they're lacking. The first one should be what led me to prison. I got to change that. Secondly should be what do I need to change in order to make it to get out, whether it be an early release or making it to your, your update, whatever? What do I need to change to get there as quickly and as efficiently as possible? And then also, a lot of people don't even think about what's going to happen when I get out, after I'm free. What do I do then?

Speaker 1: 28:41

And I used to stress it so much, and I mean you remember the blue book. I used to write all the quotes in. I ended up transcribing it all to a different book and I turned it into like my life goals book and I still got that book to this day and I would write every single thing, whether it was a movie, I wanted to see a video game, I wanted to play food, I wanted to try recipes, poetry, you know. I wrote all my goals. I would go down to the Hope Center and get on the Ohio Means Jobs computers and I would just write down all the different jobs I wanted to apply for like everything in this book.

Speaker 1: 29:21

So the one thing that anybody could never say about me was like he ain't got no plan when he go home, you know. You know like I hit the ground and just it was like having ADHD, which I do have. I hit the ground. I was like I just got to do something, I got to get to it. I got to get to it and people like, dude, just calm down and chill, and I'm like, no, you don't understand. I'm the dude that play video games and all I think about is I got to get the high score Right. So when I came to life, especially this life that I've been thinking and planning about for 10 years, you know the plan gets revised, this new information comes in, time goes by, maturity happens. You know I'm on plan 7.2 and I'm like I got to get to, I got to get the high score, I got to make this happen. This whole damn plan 10 years of planning I'm trying to make happen in weeks, right, you know. So it's like people need to think about that.

Speaker 3: 30:24

But you're a goal getter and there was a part of you that was not satisfied that I need to get the high score and because of that, that part was so alive in you that it didn't matter what environment you were in. You were going to do your best to get the things in which you wanted. And the beautiful part about that is there's a lot of men in prison with a lot of good information to help you be better if you want to. There was a guy in here named Bo and he made this statement and when he first said it it pissed me off because I thought he was being arrogant. And what do you say? There's a man that's supposed to be able to provide for himself, whether you're out there or in here, and I'm like, well, shoot, everybody can't provide for themselves in here unless you hustle it. But this to build these big 3D art platforms, whatever they are. But these things are huge, but they're 3D art. And what he's been trying to do here is he's trying to find ways for guys to start businesses in here on their own. There wouldn't be a businessmen like contractors, but they had to generate like $300, $400 a month. I never even conceived anything like that. And so now he lit this fire in me to say how can you use your talent right now in prison, right now, to generate you an income to where you become less of a burden to people out there?

Speaker 3: 31:51

But had he never made that statement, had he never made that challenge, I would have just kept sitting back and go well, I can't do anything until I get home. And now I'm buying books on writing, I'm trying to write articles and I'm getting my skills up. They're about to bring this woman down here for the Marshall Projects. She's going to teach us how to write essays and they will buy our essays. And it's like all these opportunities open up simply off of a challenge that someone made that I accepted once I understood what he was talking about.

Speaker 3: 32:20

And there's challenges made to us every single day that, instead of us accepting it and trying to find ways to apply it, we either say you don't know what you're talking about or we'll just miss them. And this same kind of mindset and this same kind of ability is a transferable skill that you could transfer the same mentality out there. And to think that every rejection you get, every time someone says that you can't. Every time that you see something difficult, instead of seeing it as something that, oh, they just picking on me or they ain't giving me a chance see it as a challenge and rise to that challenge to be something that you know you were meant to be when you were doing it. And that's how reckless we were when we were out here that we got this fearless mentality. You have one minute remaining. I could do anything I want. Imagine taking that same fearlessness, that same charge ahead mentality, and apply it towards something that's going to benefit you and not harm anyone in the process. We're warriors, man, but we act like pussy sometimes.

Speaker 1: 33:27

Facts, but I like. What you said, though, is like being able to transfer. There's a lesson in everything, and that lesson doesn't just apply to the thing at hand.

Speaker 3: 33:37

Absolutely. You have to be willing to go towards that challenge. That challenge just makes us better, builds us, makes us stronger, it teaches us things about ourselves and the main thing is, the challenge is not going to kill us if you get backed up and keep moving.

Speaker 1: 33:54

Right Failure, not going to kill us if we fail. Failure is only failure if you stop Absolutely. So you can't just take that one little bump and be like damn, I failed. You got to be like okay, regroup and attack it again.

Speaker 3: 34:13

Thank you for using GTL yeah.

Speaker 1: 34:16

So what I was saying was, like every lesson you learn in life man can be reapplied to something else. Like, especially, like you know you do a lot of writing. If you attack a life problem, the way that you construct a story, then you know it's not exactly the same, but there's a lot of wisdom in it. You know you don't just, you don't just start putting pen to paper and you know the first thing come out is what it is and you turn it in. You'd be like, no, okay, let's think about this. What are we trying to write here? Like, what are we trying to do right now in life? All right, what elements does it need? Oh well, I got some ideas that I've been thinking of. Let me make a list of those ideas. You know, like you constructed in an orderly manner and you didn't show up unprepared to even be there to write it in the first place. So it's the same thing out in life. Like first you got to figure out what the fuck it is you want to do.

Speaker 1: 35:16

A lot of people say they want stuff. They don't even know what that want is. They don't even know what it means to want that. Like I want to get out of prison, like we just used that example. I want to get out. What the fuck are you going to do with it? I want freedom. What the fuck are you going to do with the freedom? You know? Like, what are you going to do? I mean shit, I just don't want to be in here.

Speaker 1: 35:36

Okay, you know what they say, man, a lot of us end up dead or in jail. So if you just don't want this, I mean, what the fuck else you want? Right? But too often we don't sit there on our rack and just be like all right, man, what are my possibilities, what can I, what are the things that are close to me being able to do? But people just say I can't do. You know, because that was my thing. It was like, dude, I'm from the streets, you can't just sit there and tell me I can't do some shit, but you're going to sit it in front of me, you know, and I just wish that everybody was able to transfer that same. You know, I'll give a fucking mentality and apply it in a positive way to something else.

Speaker 3: 36:22

But you know, the problem that we have is a lot of us can say are what? But a lot of us don't know our house, and that scares us. It's so easy to tell you what I desire I want a car, I want a mansion, I want a helicopter, a couple of crocodiles with gators on, I want a pair of keys. We could tell you what we want because it's easy to fantasize, but then when you start saying, well, how are you going to get it? How are you going to find the strength to do the things necessary in order to get it? Now you're talking about planning. Now you're talking about knowing your resources. Now you're talking about seeking help. Now you're talking about skills. Now you're talking about learning. Now you're talking about applying time, because most of us don't get to the house of things. You have to think about the first time, when you still had the mentality that you had. That brought you to prison, but there was the ability to want more.

Speaker 3: 37:26

I recall mine. I was in Lebanon and the fairs just came and picked us up for doing the bank robberies and actually and I remember sitting in the cell and telling myself I don't want to live this way anymore. I don't want to do it and I honestly did not know how not to live the way I have been living for 28 years of my life. I had no clue and it scared me so much because that unknown almost almost put it like a hopelessness in me. I can't be anything else because this is all I know and I was fortunate enough to start being around individuals that I was willing to listen to and learn a little bit at a time.

Speaker 3: 38:18

But a lot of people don't know how to be better. They are the way you was told how to be better. When you was kid, they taught me how to live better, but they didn't teach me how to be better, how to take these things and apply it in real time to the situation, struggles and crises in my life. And because I don't know how to do that, I took survival method. Like you would tell me, don't live, don't survive. But most of us never get out of survival mode. We never found anything within ourselves that teaches that there's a life outside of survival mode. So we're always ready to fight, we're always ready to run, we're always ready to hide or to game or try to find a backdoor angle or try to find a way to slick ourselves through. I'm in work to wait, be patient, to invest, to see so far down the line as they focus on that until it's achieved. Anybody teaching us how to do that?

Speaker 2: 39:17

Right.

Speaker 1: 39:19

Right and that's actually another episode that I wanted to do with you too was, let me see, I got it right here. Oh, it was about coming to prison when you're young. So I'm actually going to make a list of all the episodes coming up for the month and I'm going to start publishing that list so for the listeners, you know a little more predictability and stuff for what's coming down the pipeline. But this episode I did I got is about coming to prison when you're young and of course, you know you got to hold your own right. I mean, there are some people in there that are predators against the younger and experienced guys, but at the same time you got to find mentors in prison.

Speaker 1: 40:07

You know, like I really hold on to a few memories, man, where, like when I first started going bald, you know I was, let me see, I was 22,. You know something like that I was old, I was old, and my dude pointed it out in a meeting. He was coming in through the road behind me like hey, man, you're going to light up top, I'm like get the fuck away from me, man.

Speaker 1: 40:31

But once it really started getting bad, though, man, it was this dude named Mike Mike, and Mike Mike taught me how to shave my head. You know, that's a lot of trust to give another dude in prison, man. You know, and you know it's a few other. You know, frank Nitty, you know, shout out to all these dudes. Frank Nitty, man they sent me now, taught me how to, how to use a needle and thread and do, made some of the flyer shit I've ever seen, not just in prison, not just in prison Dude man. He made a dude a whole damn suit with a hat, a dress shirt and everything you know, and they could arrive with anything you get off the shelf out here. But you know, these are guys. When I was young, when I was 18, 19, I was doing time with him in Toledo and stuff. You know, mike Mike, frank Nitty, we was all doing time in Toledo and these dudes pulled me aside and started giving me gang. But you can't just trust anybody. So, anyway, that's another episode that I wanted to do.

Speaker 3: 41:30

Okay, no problem. So, again I say what's that Go ahead. No, I was just saying that. I'm just sitting there thinking about that, that how there's so many people in here that they don't even know how to live their life and we have this expectation on them that they should.

Speaker 1: 41:51

Right I mean. So that's one of the issues of you know why we hear, why we doing this podcast in first place and why we doing mentorship both inside and outside prison is because everybody say, just clean up your life, just live right. Because they have the expectation that we know what that is and how to do it. But I mean not everybody can do it. I mean not everybody came from a good household, not everybody had good examples and chose the bad one. You know, I mean shit. When you live in the street so you grew up in prison, it's like telling me to live right. It's like this is all I know. I know it's us against them. You know, I know that. You know I don't let nobody get my space, I don't let it bite, put me, I don't let nobody. So when you say, do something different, you like like what? Because only the different I know is what I seen on the Cosby show.

Speaker 3: 42:46

Yeah, but, but. But you know. You know it's also a tragedy. People are so quick to tell you what you should do. Very few are willing to take the time to invest and show you how to do it.

Speaker 3: 42:59

There's so many individuals that have had people come into their lives and they give them the glimmer that they are worth something. They could be something more than what they chose. And as soon as they come into life and they really start to believe it, those people are gone. Yeah, and most of us that come into prison have had some form of rejection or abandonment at some point in our lives from someone that we trusted and thought cared about us.

Speaker 3: 43:35

Now imagine when you start to believe and someone take that away from you by them leaving, or someone make you believe that all the stuff that you've been doing your entire life was unfairly done to you. But you can rise above that and be something better. And then you start grasping on to it and then it's taken away from you. That's why mentorship is so important, because a mentor says not only do I believe in something in you worth investing in, I'm going to invest my life, currency, which is our time, into you. Until you reach it, I'm not going to do work for you, but I will support you and guide you to the best of my ability until you're able to walk on your own and give it to someone else.

Speaker 1: 44:19

Yeah, they're going to stay there with you and see it through, but not any of them have that mentor. Yeah, I mean, you know how I feel about mentorship, man, that's where it's at. Yeah, that's where it's at. I was a mentor and I need to benefit of it.

Speaker 1: 44:35

It's not anything like you can get out of a book. It's not anything that you can get off of a TV or a college class or anything like that Mentorship man. When you got somebody that you can report back to what your results after they showed you, they didn't tell you. They showed you, let you go out there and do it and then you can report back and they can sit there and guide you right there in person. Man, they stick around until it's done. That's the thing, is the presence.

Speaker 3: 45:08

And another thing that mentors do is they're able to decipher information that you can't do on your own. One of the things that I always had was I was always quick to judge what I did. I do something about it. Man, I did something bad and I'm not stupid man, I'm not gonna mess that up. And my mentor said you can't do good or bad right now because you're just learning. He said, whatever you do every time you stumble, what did you learn from it? And he was always. I mean, he had to keep drilling that into my head because every time I messed up, I was quick to criticize myself and judge myself because of it. And he had to get me out of that mentality of learn from what you're doing, stop judging yourself because of it. And now, when I do things, I thought, okay, what did I learn from it? Be better, do better. That's one of the things that I liked about NA, because I go to NA all the time. One of the things I like about that is they teach you one day at a time. Looking at forever is just too big of a price, but I can look at it right now and, if I mess up today, find out why that wasn't messed up.

Speaker 3: 46:15

What was my trigger? What caused me to relapse? Because relapsing happened at that moment. It happened a long time ago. Find that out, talk to someone about it and then get back on the mission of recovery. And this constant recycling of 24 hours is easier for me to handle. But someone had to teach that to me and they had to walk with me, do it, and they had to stick with me.

Speaker 3: 46:37

And when I was, when I was had these messed-up ways of thinking and I wanted to beat myself up, they said don't be as hard on yourself. Start looking at yourself with kinder eyes. Learn how to love yourself. Learn how to forgive yourself. I didn't know how to do that. They sound like great things to do and I'm like, wow, who wouldn't want to do that? But how to do it I had no idea. And to someone, show me and they, they was patient enough to give me every example that they possibly could to help me get it to where I. All these things would become a natural part of who I am and I could flush out some of that toxic way of thinking. It came from my bad trauma and all these other negative experiences in my life. Mentorship is crucial for anyone anyone but there's not a lot of mentors out there.

Speaker 1: 47:22

You're right. You're right, man, it's not. But you know what there would be, I think, if there were more people who sought mentorship.

Speaker 3: 47:35

You think?

Speaker 1: 47:36

Yeah, I mean dude. One thing that I've learned is that it's it's always somebody trying to tell you about their experience, like if you go ask, like I just actually I just ran into a dude today. I promise you it was my last load of the day. I was at work and I'm walking out of the store and I see this dude, he's got a Hennessy TRX, so it's a Dodge pickup truck, but it's like on steroids, right, it's probably about a hundred and fifty thousand dollar truck. So I'm walking out you know, I'm really in the cars and shit and I walk out and I see it.

Speaker 1: 48:15

I'm like whoa, like stop me in my tracks. And I'm like bro, like what's up with this truck? He's like, oh yeah, you know, he's on Nautilant and I'm like man, how much this thing costs. He's a little pretty penny. He kind of like being big. I'm like that's probably like like a hundred and thirty, hundred and forty. So he's like, oh yeah, actually, yeah, you know. So then we, he pumping gas. I'm like, so what'd he get about? Like what, like 12 miles gallon. He like, yeah, actually get about 10 to 12 gallons. I'm like man, so we just got going in about this truck and I'm like, if you don't mind me, asking like what do you do? And he was like like he stopped pumping his gas and turned and had like a 10 minute conversation with me.

Speaker 1: 48:58

You know like there's people out there like, even if we're not talking about mentorship, how much you know Like people just like talking about themselves. If you got a person talk, they keep talking and talking. All you got to do is ask the right questions. And if you say, hey man, I love what you did here and I really want to do something similar Like would you mentor me? It would blow their fucking mind, cause nobody ever asked that question Like yo. Would you kind of show me how to do this? Help me get my foot in the door? And then like hell yeah, I ran into on the job.

Speaker 1: 49:39

I ran into people like this all the time. One dude asked me like yo, you work here. Like I want to figure out how to get in. So I'm like all right, give me your number, I pass it on to my boss. I start asking questions. Dude hit me up. I'm like yo, this is what I got. And so he started telling me about what he do. I'm like, hey, actually, hey, man, I try to help you on this side, if you can help me on this side. He was like bet, hell yeah, you know Right. So I mean cause he like man, I live in Columbus and I got a whole fleet of trucks that's down in like Cincinnati area and stuff. So I'm trying to figure out how to get in where y'all at so I can have a little local Columbus thing. So I'm like damn, like all you got to do is ask, but nobody asked. We got too much pride to ask.

Speaker 3: 50:24

Yeah, but they'll say close mouth, don't get fed.

Speaker 1: 50:28

Man, and it's really rare that somebody's going to go and put in all their time and effort before they know how it's going to be received. You know.

Speaker 3: 50:38

You know the interesting thing about that? The guy who mentored me. One of the things that he said, because I asked him like why did you decide to mentor me? This is 1,100 men in this prison. Why, why me? And he told me.

Speaker 3: 50:54

He said you came asking questions and he said when a person come and asks me questions, they're thirsty to know, they're trying to figure some things out, they're trying to find out and they just don't know how. So they start asking questions. He said the people who just say they want to be taught are thieves, because they just want to know enough to be slicker. He said but you always come with a question. He said everything. He said I have to be walking on the yard and you were calling to me. Hey, I got a question for you. And he said your questions became so frequent that I was like, ok, I'm going to give him a shot. He said but if you didn't come asking me questions, he said I would just walk by you, like I'd always speak to you, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't have stopped. And so, yeah, I think you are right.

Speaker 3: 51:38

People have to ask questions, they have to pursue. Desire is shown by pursuit the things that you desire the most is the things that you're going to pursue the hardest. I don't care what that is, and so, yeah, I definitely agree. If more people would set their pride aside, set their ego aside and say I need help and you look like you're doing exactly what I want to do, can you help me? I do believe more people would step up to the plate.

Speaker 3: 52:10

But again, that's something that we need to learn how to do, like if the cyclists keep coming right back around to people think that simply because we're grown, I had to learn that I didn't even know how to make a choice. Isn't that crazy? I won't lie you made a choice to come to prison. I said why do you think I made a choice to come to prison? Well, you knew what you were doing and you knew what could happen. I said do you really think I was thinking about coming to prison or not? I committed my crime. You think I was really on my mind like you know what.

Speaker 1: 52:44

I'm going to go ahead and take this. Yeah, let's see what that's like.

Speaker 3: 52:47

That's not the first thing, for my mind. The first thing I was thinking about I'm going to do this and I ain't going to get caught. I thought I was triggered in that. So I learned that there were five steps. A person had to make a good choice, a mature choice, and I didn't do any of them. But that's something that had to be taught to me and something I had to learn.

Speaker 3: 53:08

And there's so many of us that are doing things. And then, when the consequences hit us in the face and I'm not just talking about people in prison, I'm talking about just people in life we do so many things that seem right at the moment and it's based off of the emotion that we're having or feeling or desire or want that when we're dealing with the consequences now, we're living with regret and, oh, I wish I would have known better, and it's something that no one has ever said. It's like look, these are the ways that you make a choice, these are the steps that you need to take. At first they're gonna be hard because you're not gonna remember them in real time, but the more you practice them, they'll just become second nature.

Speaker 1: 53:50

You know, I don't know if I ever said this on a podcast, but one of the things that got me into mentoring people was actually when I came home and I had a couple of mentors. You know, I had about three mentors when I first came home in different areas, and the first thing I started trying to do is pass the game on to other people. I knew it was in my situation and you'd be surprised how many people were like I don't give a fuck, they're in this bad situation with me and they say they want relief. But I'm like yo, look, and they're like stop acting like. You're better than me, you know. And I actually, when I started getting money for real in this trucking, I actually offered to pay for like six or seven guys to go to trucking school, and that's like $5,000 a piece, right, without any obligation. I came like yo, I paid for this, you don't gotta pay me back, just out of love and I want to see you have opportunities that I got. I was like yo, I do this. I never paid for anybody to go to trucking school to this day, not because I wasn't gonna follow through, but because they was like oh hell, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I check in, like hey, yo, you go down there to the B and V and get that book. Oh dog man, I'm serious.

Speaker 1: 55:20

And so, after I kept making this offer because then I started making other offers, like you know, investing together and all this other stuff I got this call one day. I was out on the road and I got a call from a dude that I ain't talked to in like 15 years and I'm like yo, what's up? He like hey, man, I was just talking to so and so and they was saying how you was getting it on the truck inside and stuff, and blah, blah, blah. He was like yo, I done went out there and you know I got the book, I got my tips, you know I got this, and that he's like hey, you think I could ride in the truck with you and stuff, just so I can see what it's like on the road. It blew my mind. I was like wait first off, what the fuck was dude telling you, cause he ain't even done the shit how you go out and do all damn steps. Right, you know?

Speaker 1: 56:12

And that's the difference between people who get offered something that they not ready for and people who, like man, I want to do this. Let me figure out somebody who doing it that can help me do it to minimize my chances of failure. Because that's the thing about mentorship is you doing it with somebody who didn't already did it? Right, we ain't got to go through here asking random blank questions and you know, let me see if I can try it. And you know like no, you got somebody at hand that did that shit and they're going to be like yeah, come here, come closer, let me show you the whole path, let me give you the game. No, no, no, once, this is what you got to do, you do that. Come back to me.

Speaker 3: 56:59

And I think that's a critical thing that you just said. You just said someone who's ready, because everyone's not ready. Like I said, there was a lot of individuals, especially when I first got locked up, when I was 18, 19, and 20, and maybe probably about 23. There's a lot of people that was telling me some good advice, but I don't want to hear any of that. You know, my mind was I'm getting out of prison by any means necessary. So if I have to escape, I'm going to escape. If I have to do bank robber, I'm going to do bank robber. Whatever I got to do, that's what I'm going to do. As they kill me in the process, so be it.

Speaker 1: 57:34

Well see, that's. The beautiful part, though, about mentorship is that you don't have to be ready. All you got to do is ask Like if you know I'd be ready to ask.

Speaker 3: 57:47

I wasn't. There was nothing that anyone could tell me at that time that I felt was more than what I know. It's not that you know, even though everything that I did completely turned to crap. There was nothing a person could tell me at that time that I didn't think I knew more about.

Speaker 1: 58:02

But see, it's not that you're not ready to ask, it's that you don't understand that asking is an option. Yeah, I mean, we grew up in a culture that's like you, man, stand up on your own too, right? You don't be out here asking for no handouts. You don't be asked and you mind your business. You know, this is the stuff that we are taught growing up. So we not about to go and ask an old man about his business. We not about to go up here and ask some stranger for help, you know.

Speaker 3: 58:33

Yeah, but really there's a reason I keep hearing around here about these young guys is self-made, I'm self-made.

Speaker 1: 58:39

I'm self-made.

Speaker 3: 58:40

There's no such thing as self-made, that kind of thing, to that thought that you're talking about.

Speaker 1: 58:42

There's no such thing as self-made. You had somebody that supported you on something, gave you an opportunity when you ain't deserve. It Was like hey man, I watch your kids while you do night school, whatever the fuck. It was Like yeah, you put it in some work, but you ain't. No man is an island. That's a quote from the Buddha. No man is an island unto himself.

Speaker 1: 59:08

You have somebody that helped you, because really, how the fuck you do it if nobody ever even introduced it to you? I mean, unless you're coming up with some new shit. But I mean, coming from where we come from, it is extremely rare that you have not been told not to stand up on your own, not to mind your own business, not to be out here begging, not to be you know. So by the time we grow, especially if we was in the streets, we were like man, I ain't about to go ask some random dude, especially not nobody that's white or a different race, because they are an outsider. But really, in all actualities, if you're not ready, just come up like, hey man, I'm interested in that. Like, can you tell me about it?

Speaker 1: 59:59

And when you realize that asking the question is an option, what does it take for somebody to get involved in something like that, you know, and then let them, you know, or even ask further. Just be like hey, man, if you can get X, y and Z and come holler at me when you get that, you know, when you get some of these prerequisites under your belt, come holler at me and I'll see what I can do, because really that's the test. That's to see if you want it. And, like I said, it's a lot of times where it's so many people out here who can't wait to pass it on. I mean, think about how many people that got their own business and they want to leave it to their kids. But their kids don't give a fuck about it, they can. All they want is somebody that's going to come and care like they care, and they just give them the whole game.

Speaker 3: 1:00:59

So you think about someone like you, who made it when everyone thought that you couldn't, and you're like man this is something that's actually possible for a lot of other individuals. You can't wait to tell somebody this is possible and then show them you can have this too. That's also how you even come in here, coming back into the prison and giving a positive story, instead of all these nightmares and horror stories. What men need to hear.

Speaker 1: 1:01:25

And I reached out to God and I went away.

Speaker 3: 1:01:29

The first thing he said oh yeah, when you get out you're going to be struggling. Oh, y'all are going to struggle, so get ready for the struggle, because you're going to struggle and everyone's going to tell you no, I'm just like, why would you say something like that? Like, okay, we understand that life ain't going to be a piece of cake, but you don't have to tell us that it's already. People that, whether they admitted or not, already nervous about going out. And then you're dumping that extra anxiety and stress on them, telling them about something that may not even happen to them. Struggling is a possibility, but everyone who got to go, they got out of prison and struggled. They had to deal with some real life stuff out there, but it wasn't. It wasn't necessarily a struggle. And they try to tell people this is what you're going to experience. To me, to me, that's just that's a lot.

Speaker 1: 1:02:18

I mean, to be honest, man, that's irresponsible, for real man. I mean it's irresponsible because, basically, I already told you how the system trains us to aim low. And if all you tell me about is about how I'm going to be in the trenches and in the mud, know that the first thing I'm going to think about is the first few steps outside the trenches. Damn, I just want to get out the trench, man, it's going to be hard. I'm going to be struggling, man, all right. Well, what can I do to make this struggle the least as possible? Fuck the struggle. I want to get out the struggle. Show me how to get past that. Don't just tell me that that's there. That's like saying somebody's going.

Speaker 3: 1:03:06

You have one minute remaining.

Speaker 1: 1:03:09

Somebody be like hey man, I know you got to go East I-70 shut down. What the fuck does that tell me? Where is it shut down at? How do I get around it? How do I get to where I need to go? Yeah, it's 70 shut down, bro, sorry.

Speaker 3: 1:03:29

You can go down there. They can definitely get that that way, but I love you, man. Definitely great conversation, as always. Yeah, I'll be in touch with you.

Speaker 1: 1:03:40

All right, man. Hey, thanks again for being a part of this man, and y'all look forward to the next one.

Speaker 3: 1:03:49

Absolutely, absolutely Big good man. Tell the family I love them. Be blessed man.

Speaker 1: 1:03:53

All right, love you, bro, be blessed. All right, all right.

Speaker 3: 1:04:00

Thank you for using GTL.

Speaker 2: 1:04:09

The Lockdown to Legacy podcast is proud to be a part of the Bussprout podcast community network. The Lockdown to Legacy is recorded at Kohatch in their lovely audiophile room. Thanks for your scholarship. Audio engineering is done by our very own Remy Jones. You can reach us with any feedback, questions, comments or share the love by emailing stories at lockdown, the number two legacycom stories at lockdowntoolegacycom. You can reach out there too for a free sticker, and you can find us on Instagram and Twitter with the handle at lockdown to legacy and on Facebook at the Lockdown to Legacy podcast. Thanks for listening.