A Second Look: Grieving, or the Lack Of

This week, DJ shares the recent loss of her Uncle, a pillar of her family and his community, too. Because of the emotional toll this has taken and the need to process and cope, DJ and Remie felt it was best to re-release the episode "Grieving, or the Lack Of" originally published on May 19, 2023.

The sting of this loss reminded Debbie of the stark reality of mourning while incarcerated. Those in prison grapple with all kinds of loss, often in isolation and without the solace of shared rituals. Today's conversation is a heartfelt exploration of this journey, offering insight and solidarity to listeners who may be navigating similar waves of sorrow, whether inside or out of the prison system. The echo of laughter from a moment shared with a loved one can be a balm for the grief-stricken soul, but for those behind bars, it's a reminder of the world they're cut off from. 

Confronting the cold indifference of the prison system to incarcerated individuals' mental health and emotional well-being, we shed light on the skepticism toward mental health services and the coping mechanisms that emerge from such a challenging environment. From comforting a grieving mother through the separation of a phone call to finding solace in tangible mementos, we offer both strategies for those struggling and a platform for the resilience of the human spirit. Join us as we honor the emotional journeys of the incarcerated, affirming that even within the harshest confines, hope and humanity can flourish.

Legacy family, please be thinking of Debbie's family during this difficult time. We'll be back with you next week after we've had time away. Love to you all. ~DJ

Transcript

Remie Jones: 0:19

Welcome to Lockdown the Legacy stories from the inside out. I'm your host, remy Jones.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 0:25

And I'm co-host Debbie Jones. We are a husband and wife team here to bring you the real life stories, experiences and questions around the American criminal justice system. We do advise discretion with this podcast. I think we should put that out there first and foremost. Yes, we are going to talk about experiences that happen inside the prison system, outside of prison systems. We will use language that might be offensive, but we intend to keep it real. And if that's not for you, we totally understand, but please do what's best for your listening ears.

Remie Jones: 0:56

Oh, we're about to keep it real, son. Our goal of this podcast is to share the inside realities of the American prison and criminal justice system, from precharges all the way to post-release, from the voices of those who've experienced it firsthand, including me.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 1:12

That's right, let's get into it. Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of Lockdown to Legacy. I am your co-host, debbie Jones, dj, and this week on Lockdown to Legacy, we are choosing to not release a new episode. After this week, on our typical recording night, I learned that my uncle, robert Steerhoff Bob, passed away unexpectedly and tragically and, to be honest with you, I just don't have the capacity to put out any new content.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 2:02

My uncle was a really amazing person. He was inducted into his high school Hall of Fame where he coached football and baseball. He also helped coach a special Olympics team in his hometown in County. He was an avid hunter deer turkey bull hunting and, more importantly than that, I have nothing but really great memories of who he was and the things he did. I remember spending the night at he and my aunt's house growing up with my cousins and just the fun we would have and how much he would try to get us an extra scoop of ice cream, because he also really loved his ice cream. And for the past many, many years, now that I have my own children, he has been kind enough to open up his home for many holidays and even put up a zip line. He helped expand the play set for the kids and I'm just, I'm really going to miss him, I'm really going to miss everything about him, and because of that I felt it was not appropriate or the time for us to try to record something and push this aside as if it wasn't the reality that we're living right now and it's not the reality and the grief and the loss that my kids are navigating and my spouse is navigating and I am navigating, and so we thought it would be best to just put this intro in here and then re-release a previous episode.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 3:45

And I felt like re-releasing our episode on grief was a good one because, while I'm not telling anybody how they should grieve right, grief shows up in so many different ways. Loss shows up in so many different ways and feelings and presents itself in all kinds of ways and spaces, and it's not linear either. I also know that there is an extra added layer of loss when you lose somebody while incarcerated. You don't have any ability to attend those funerals, to be a part of those services, to spend time with your family like I've had the opportunity to do, to reach out and hug my aunt and my grandparents and be in community with all of the people who can share these memories of my uncle.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 4:37

I know that that is somewhat of a privilege that those who are incarcerated don't always get, and so with that, please I don't know that enjoy is the right word, but please revisit this episode with us and learn a little bit more about grief and incarceration and our audio was up and coming at this time, so give it like 30 seconds. It's going to be really quiet and then it's going to get louder, so don't turn up your car volume, because then you're going to blow out your eardrums. Lastly, if you could, please, please, be thinking about my family, whether that is through healing energy, whether that is through good vibes, whether that's prayers, we welcome any and everything and greatly appreciate it. We'll be back with you next week, thank you.

Remie Jones: 5:40

Happy, happy welcome to another episode of Lockdown Legacy. Of course, I'm your host, rumi Jones.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 5:48

I am cohost Debbie Jones.

Remie Jones: 5:50

The beautiful the talented.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 5:52

I can't say it enough, folks, you do this every time.

Remie Jones: 5:55

If you're a steady listener man, I'm sorry but you know I'm in love. You crack me up. It's a great honor to work with such a beautiful woman and be so in love and do something that we love doing together. And if you can't tell that you know, if we can't tell that we enjoy it, then shame on you. And if you can tell the times when I'm not in the mood, then shame on me and I apologize for that.

Remie Jones: 6:27

But you know we're back Another episode, this episode we actually wanted to continue the last episode sort of kind of kind of from a different view.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 6:38

Yeah, that's a good question for me. You know we talked about death in prison on our last episode and dying in prison, but I kind of was curious about losing somebody. So death of a loved one while you were incarcerated, like what the impacts of that is on an individual, with the impacts of that are on an individual, there we go. I heard it and I had to go back. But I mean, you know I've heard stories from folks who are incarcerated and how difficult navigating that grief is, and so I thought it was probably a good extension for us. So we know we've been hitting the heavy topics that we'll come back with, like another food at the holidays or something funny here soon.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 7:29

But, I'm going to say bring Joe back, because you can bring the humor back to the podcast. We've been pretty serious this month, but you know, that's the realities and we want to make sure that we speak to those things.

Remie Jones: 7:41

So yeah, but you know, before we get off of that, because, like you said, that's kind of a heavy subject. Let's just do a little update, man, you know, like we normally do.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 7:52

You have huge news.

Remie Jones: 7:54

I have huge news. Before I get the huge news, what do you want to go first?

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 7:59

No, no, my name is Minor.

Remie Jones: 8:01

Yeah, I do have huge news. If any of you guys follow us on Facebook, you may have seen the post that I made. Oh wait, I just realized. I only posted it to my page. I didn't post it to the page.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 8:14

We'll do that before the stairs.

Remie Jones: 8:16

Yeah, definitely so. Anyway, May 13th, you know, just passed not too long ago and that was the mark of my fifth year out of prison. Happy anniversary Doing that 10-year prison sentence.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 8:36

That's right.

Remie Jones: 8:38

And you know it was pretty big. You know five years. You know I haven't had a single run in with the law other than getting pulled over, but you know it's the nature of the job.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 8:49

And that one time you were going too fast.

Remie Jones: 8:52

It was to get to work. It's the job. Yeah, I was only doing like 85 and a 70, 86. I'm like whatever. But good thing about being a driver for a living is they give you a lawyer free. So my lawyer showed up and got that dismiss, no points. It was like a hundred bucks Get out of here.

Remie Jones: 9:19

Anyway, it's five years man. That was my fifth year anniversary and I was out helping my in-laws and my family do garage sales. I didn't even realize what the day was and I got a text from my best friend shout out to Mickey and she said congratulations on this big day. I'm so proud of you and who you've become and you've accomplished so much. I'm like fuck is she talking about? And before I actually text that back, I realized what the date was. I'm horrible at keeping track of the date, by the way and I was like, oh snap, man, thanks, you're such a great best friend. And then I had also noticed that my mother had sent me a text congratulating me the day prior and I didn't even see it. Horrible me, but I'm sorry, that was big man, that was really big. I'm proud of it.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 10:25

Do you want to share with folks what you did on release day? What you're talking about what did you do? Your family came. Your mom and your sister came to pick you up, right.

Remie Jones: 10:38

Yeah, so the day I got out of prison I had sold everything and that was in my possession. So by the time the actual day came, I had nothing to my person but a pair of flip flops and the sweatsuit that I was going to wear out the door and my trucker hat.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 10:58

Yes, always a hat.

Remie Jones: 11:00

And I remember being in the entry area where my mom and my sister was waiting. I come out of the security door and of course they run over and hug me and they're taking pictures and we're all laughing and hugging and talking and stuff and the guard just kind of casually chimes in. He's like I've never seen anybody stay here after getting out of prison Like you guys. Been here for like 10 minutes Like what are you doing? Go?

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 11:32

on get.

Remie Jones: 11:34

So we're like, oh yeah, my bad, we were going to leave and my sister was like, but wait, I gotta use the bathroom. So like we hang out even longer, anyway. After that we went to the Dastiest Restaurant in Existence.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 11:46

Oh, are you going to call it out by name?

Remie Jones: 11:50

It's Debbie's favorite.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 11:51

No, it's not, You're a liar.

Remie Jones: 11:55

We went to the barrel. I don't want to say the actual name. It sucks. Whatever. It's the cracker barrel, it's the cracker barrel.

Remie Jones: 12:05

Not your jam, not my jam but you went, we got horrible service and very bland food and the only thing I could think was man, this is a whole lot better than what I get in prison. And they gave me this really big plate with a really small portion. I was like what the fuck is going on here? There's nothing like I remember it. But then I went home and my other sister and her husband and my cousin and her husband they took me to a comedy show.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 12:42

Yeah.

Remie Jones: 12:42

And that was great. It was a great night. And then something really sad happened. My sister got in a car accident that night after we left the comedy show. Yeah, she's doing okay though.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 12:56

Five years later, she's doing good too.

Remie Jones: 12:59

She's better. Yeah, but that was my first day out. It was a big day, of course. They handed me an iPhone and I was like, mind you, it was in context when I went to prison, like a few months later, the first iPhone was released.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 13:18

Right, you'd never experienced the iPhone at all. No, like my last phone. That.

Remie Jones: 13:23

I had, yeah, an iPod, maybe.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 13:26

I had an iPod, yeah. I had the big one with, like the little dial, the little spin dial.

Remie Jones: 13:32

Anyway, before I went to prison, man, my last phone was the sidekick. Oh man, so you know, I come home, I'm like a dinosaur. They're like oh, here goes his iPhone 8, pro Max, whatever. I'm like the fuck. You're like where's?

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 13:52

the part that kicks out with the numbers. Where are you flipping at?

Remie Jones: 13:57

For like three days. Man, I really, like my mom was like you know, do you want to use the car? You want to go anywhere? Like you know, I had my license already. I was like, nah, I'm cool, Like I really just laid on the bed and tried to figure out this phone for like three days.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 14:11

I think it's important that people know that you're really good at the phone now and the computer, like you're good at all the Mac products. You know all the things.

Remie Jones: 14:18

I got nothing but Mac products.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 14:20

You're really good at technology. Now Apple betters my phone. Five years ago, though, it was a different time.

Remie Jones: 14:28

I even converted DJ to being an iPhone person.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 14:31

You did.

Remie Jones: 14:32

Has her own Mac, own Apple Watch man.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 14:34

Look at me changing my house.

Remie Jones: 14:36

Won't I do it? Anyway, back on topic. What were we talking about?

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 14:42

Your first few days home, you learned your iPhone.

Remie Jones: 14:45

So that was my thing, as I've been home five years and I'm really proud of that. I'm really proud of not going back, man. And it is a sad reality that I got a few guys that I kept in touch with when I came home from inside a prison and it's really sad, man, that like four of them are back in prison. One of them has been like five times. Like I've been home five years and he's been back five times. Right, that's really disappointing and sad man.

Remie Jones: 15:20

And it kind of made me feel like a bad friend because at first I just kept trying to help, kept trying to help, kept trying to help, like that's what I do. I tried to be a friend and a mentor and it was kind of like throwing back on my face. So I felt like a bad friend because I gave up on the friendship. I was just like all right man, I'm done because you're not going to just only call me when you want some money in your books, like I didn't do that to other people, I'm not going to let you do that to me Whatever.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 15:56

I don't think that's the way. Similarly, though, like, I think what's hard for you is you watch all of these people that you were close to, and you all had this common mission of like we're going home and we're never going back, and there aren't very many people who are where you are, and I think I think that gets to you. I don't think you would say that it does. But I see how that gets to you.

Remie Jones: 16:20

It does.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 16:21

And I think that with this specific friend, I mean, I want to emphasize how much you tried, how much you offered, how much you I mean you offered a place to stay. You were like come down here and get away from the stuff and live with me for a minute, like let me, get you Me and my wife and kids.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 16:41

That's right, and I think that's the way to open up our home, to make sure that somebody didn't stay within an environment that was going to cause them harm and that, like, so it's not. You over extended yourself for this circle and these individuals. But I think what I want to say about your anniversary is what I know about you is your drive and your commitment and your unwavering discipline when it comes to things that are important to you, and you can't create that for other people, right? You can't create that for your friend. You can't have that on his own or it's never going to be successful.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 17:25

And I think that that's the part that you struggled with and I'm really proud of you. I mean, I tell you all the time when you tell stories to me, it's like you're talking about completely different human, like it's not. They don't seem real to me. I'm like that's not true. You're like, yes, that's true. I'm like, no, not you. I mean, it's like the life of an entirely different person, and I know the sacrifice that you had to make to make that reality for you and how you had to commit to this new version of you and how you've had to recommit to that, not just every year on your anniversary, but, like daily recommit to, this is who I am. This is what I'm going to accomplish. This is what I'm going to do. I've never seen you fail at a goal. You might readjust it, but I've never seen you put a goal out there and not completely smash it. So it's a real honor to know you.

Remie Jones: 18:23

I just want you guys to know that all of that is heavily biased.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 18:26

Oh, my goodness. I mean we how is it that you can start every podcast?

Remie Jones: 18:33

Beautiful and lovely.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 18:34

And I don't get to hype you up on this very important anniversary. I mean, I see this, I see this every day in you. I see it, I see you commit to this every single day, you know something.

Remie Jones: 18:46

To go back to what you said about, um, like, why it affects me, it's not so much that other people haven't accomplished what I did, even though we were in the same place at the same time, it's that, so the one individual in particular that's been back five times in five years, um, for like four or five years, you know, we worked out together, we ate together, we went to trade together. When we were doing these mechanics apprenticeship, we, I mean, we did all this stuff together. Man, we pretty much was always together for four or five years, and what we did after we worked out every time was we will walk the track outside and there were some bleachers, um, you know, by the basketball court that overlooked the road. You know they faced the fence and the road that went by. So we would literally just like walk the track or sit on those bleachers and look out at the road and talk about what we were going to do when we went home.

Remie Jones: 19:52

You know, like yo, this is what I want, this is what, everything from, like, what kind of car are you going to get, bro? Like, man, I'm trying to do this, I'm trying to do that. Like I've been researching some jobs man, I'm about to try to do this when I get home, like I'm all types of stuff, man.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 20:07

Did you talk about your future wives and describe me perfectly. I did I know it, you could paint the picture. Oh yeah, I'm sure yeah.

Remie Jones: 20:15

But that's the that's. The thing that really disappointed me was, you know, four years of walking this track together and talking about what we were going to do, and I went home and I did all of it and he didn't do any of it. Any of it, I know. Not only did he not do any of it, but he messed up a lot of opportunities that he had that other people really didn't have, that were already set up for him, and so that particular individual man it really hurt to to give up on that friendship, like you know, because it changed the way I looked at him as a person. Like you're a hypocrite, you know. Like I don't even feel like I know you, because everything I thought I knew and all the discipline and I thought you had, I don't see it anymore, you know.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 21:02

I think it's a good reminder that you know you can talk a lot right about what it is you're going to do, but then when you're faced with those circumstances, it was like that was too much for him to really commit to the things he said or things in theory. It was like the circumstances, the reality was really different for him and he just couldn't find. He couldn't find those promises he made to himself in that, when he was faced with that and it's really disappointing I still hold hope. You know, I hold hope.

Remie Jones: 21:38

So this is becoming a whole episode and stuff right now, but I'm gonna tell you like I'm not mad.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 21:45

No.

Remie Jones: 21:46

At. You know I understand that I'm different a little bit. You know, I understand that after doing like he did 14 years, I did 10. Mm-hmm, and he went in at 19 as well, just like I did, for pretty much the same as that crime. So we had so much in common there. But I'm the type of person who always wants to see every single situation from both sides. Mm-hmm, I understand that after doing over a decade in prison, you feel like you missed out on a whole bunch. Yeah, and a lot of people have it in their head like I just want to go home and experience all that stuff when I had it in my mind like that shit's gone, ship sailed. I missed out on that. Let me go and set up the rest of my life from here on.

Remie Jones: 22:41

Let me bust my ass. I'm already used to being away from home, away from people not having a lot of material possessions. So I came home and I was the cheapest person you knew. I literally shopped for my clothes at Sam's Club. Like people was like dogging me. Like, bro, you getting money, why are you shopping for clothes at Sam's Club? Like they don't even give you a bag? My guy, you know. But I'm like because I got a goal man, I got goals. And you know I got into my sister's boyfriend like he, like bro, I get you some Yeezys, I can get you some J's. I'm like I don't give a fuck about none of that. Like, before I buy some J's, I'm gonna buy some stock in Nike. Like I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. You know. But anyway, let's just skip this whole subject.

Remie Jones: 23:32

In other recent news I I told you guys I'm out of training now. I've been killing that shit. I'm killing it, bro. This last week this is past. Oh man, hit the target Like every day smashed it out the water, like in training. They had me thinking that every day. It was damn near like going to be close, whether I was going to get my sign work done or not, but I'm like every day I'm calling Yo, I'm like two hours and 15 minutes ahead of schedule. But you got something else. I need that.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 24:10

Well, that's the again the drive and the commitment, and I'm going to set a goal and challenge myself.

Remie Jones: 24:16

That's just who you are as a person.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 24:18

Like you get bonus, pay, I mean I understand that there is money attached to the goal, but it doesn't change that the goal is the same. That's just. That's who you are at every, at every juncture.

Remie Jones: 24:29

So it's not surprising, while I'm calling for extra loads, I be seeing guys like going and clocking out. I'm like damn bro, you clocking out two hours early. You don't get paid for that.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 24:44

Yeah, you would never.

Remie Jones: 24:45

Anyway, so work is going well. I've been real tired lately but you know I'm living, living my son. My son has some sensory issues where he he's really sensitive to loud sounds. Sometimes he loves trains, hates the sound of trains Like he's that type of kid. But today he went on a motorcycle ride with me. My motorcycle was loud as shit. Son, I don't know why. I want this whole like New York trip.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 25:19

But yeah though.

Remie Jones: 25:22

So like I pulled up on a motorcycle, and usually he would be like standing there with his hands over his ears, but instead he said that he wanted to ride with me on a motorcycle, and it totally.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 25:35

He has ridden it before and didn't like it.

Remie Jones: 25:38

Oh, he tried to jump off while we were moving.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 25:39

He did not like your bike. That's cool. We should. We should disclaim her that we are very safe on our motorcycles and so when we? Put. I'm going to say it because I don't want somebody to be like you're putting it. So we do all of the safe things and it was in our cul-de-sac that he rode on the motorcycle.

Remie Jones: 26:00

I fancy living in a cul-de-sac.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 26:01

Oh my goodness, but he loved it. It's not when we weren't out on the open roads at 60 miles an hour. Not only did he do it.

Remie Jones: 26:09

You know, of course we're doing like five miles an hour around the cul-de-sac, you know. But he was like let's go around the big circle, which is, you know, the street before the cul-de-sac. And then we went out there and he was like this is fun, can we go faster? So I mean like we got up to like 25 miles an hour and he was like screaming and laughing the whole time, which made me real proud. I loved it. I look forward to it in the future.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 26:38

We also got some fun, uh, Mother's and Father's Day gifts he did for us.

Remie Jones: 26:43

Oh yeah.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 26:44

Our little poems were good. I was 10 years old, my favorite food was soup. My favorite color was purple. Those two were right. That first one is not so accurate. Um, my job is to go to work, which is that's what yours was, too right. Your job is to go to work. Um, it was just really cute. I love those little poems.

Remie Jones: 27:10

By the way, what she's describing is like he drew a picture of each of us, and then it was like a little fill in the word poem. It was like you know, my mommy or my daddy's name is and their favorite color is, and there you know so.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 27:27

I got my mommy's name One of us got one laminated. My mommy's name is mommy, which I liked.

Remie Jones: 27:34

Um, I was 22 years old, which was great because you know it's inaccurate, yeah. Jacob was 25, which is cool because he's actually younger than me and the thing that made him happy the most is when I cook him dinner, which, you know, really set the bar low, son.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 27:59

No, that's cute.

Remie Jones: 28:00

As long as I keep feet, to provide what else? Uh, you know, I didn't get permission to say this before, but I want to say it anyway. Okay, um, a big thing happened in our co-parenting relationships. Um, my youngest daughter, her mother, recently got married and it was a little bit shaky at first, that interaction man, Not anything, of course, due to me, because I'm a great guy but uh, we had this big party at a trampoline park and everybody came and everybody had fun and everybody interacted and it was a beautiful experience.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 28:47

So shout out to all the co-parents yeah, it was our first um party where all of the co-parents have gotten to come, including, you know, her new husband and his children. So, uh, it was the first time that we got everybody together. So, um, you know, we haven't talked a lot about our, our um kind of co-parenting relationship on this podcast which I think could be a whole podcast in and of itself, probably but we do really work hard at making sure all of our children know that every single one of their parents loves them, so we don't use terms like ex-husband or ex-girlfriend or you know, these kinds of terms that could be seen as negative. We like the term co-parent, um, because really every single one of us is here and committed to the kids.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 29:32

That's, that's the important part, um, and just because those relationships didn't work out doesn't mean that there is less love involved. I think I would argue that there is more love, um, and there's more opportunity for people to be there for them. So it's something that we've worked really hard at over the last um few years and sometimes it's gone easier than others, but it was really exciting to see the birthday party come together and everybody be able to be there and spend a couple hours celebrating. So, yeah, all right.

Remie Jones: 30:06

So now that we're 26 minutes in that's right.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 30:10

You want to talk about the episode?

Remie Jones: 30:11

Let's get to talking about some grief.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 30:14

Yeah, that's a heavy turn, though Like there's no segue, there's no there's no segue.

Remie Jones: 30:19

There's no need for segue. Yeah.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 30:21

We just gave them.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 30:22

the last episode we were talking about people, you know so again, yeah, I brought this up as a question because I think about loss and how, as a person who is not incarcerated, how I would experience losing somebody in my life and how I would have the sense of community and being around my family and sharing stories and like going through material possessions and having laughs and looking through pictures, like we would have the opportunity to do all of that to process this loss and this space of not having this loved one. And it occurred to me that people who are incarcerated don't have that opportunity to grieve in that same capacity, and it felt like something worth talking about.

Remie Jones: 31:08

Yeah, grieving is something that you typically don't get a chance to do, or do properly, when you're in prison. I've seen people grieve in all different ways, like I've seen people just lose their shit and say fuck it and throw everything and every opportunity away and then have to deal with it when it's over. I've seen people just completely shut down. I've seen people lose like their minds over it, and then there's people like me who, like I don't know, like okay, I'm gonna just stick to the notes, all right. So one of the worst things I can think about being in prison is not being able to grieve, not for yourself, not for your broken relationships and most definitely not for the people that you lose while you're on the inside. So while I was in lockdown, I actually, on average, lost about one person every two years. So for 10 years, every other year I had a death of someone that was close to me and that sucks. That sucks a lot. So the first one was actually my grandmother. It was my father's mother and I got the call from the case manager to come to their office and they told me I don't know how the fuck they knew, but they told me and I was like sweaty and just came back from rec you know it was about to hop in the shower and they're like no, no, case manager, I wanna talk to you real quick. So I'm standing there like totally unprepared for what I'm about to hear, and they just tell me, and then standing there and wait for my reaction and that shit hurt. Like that hurt. Man, I was like me and my grandma it's cool and that really hurt.

Remie Jones: 33:13

And then they're like you know well, how are you feeling? Like fuck you, what do you mean? How I'm feeling, like you know that's what we stuff like that he's like well, do you need to talk to somebody? I'm like bro, I don't talk to y'all because, remember, like it's like give him a random rights, everything that you say can be used against you. I don't trust them folks. They ain't never done anything good for me. So like he was like kind of like taking a back that I wouldn't show any emotion.

Remie Jones: 33:45

And then he offered to let me go to the funeral and that blew my mind because I didn't know they did stuff like that. So I got excited. I was like hell, yeah, I wanna go, I wanna go see my family, because I was really disappointed at myself for not being out there for my grandma. She was sick, on her way out and I wasn't there. I wasn't able to go see her and talk with her and laugh with her and help her feel better and I really feel bad about that. And then I felt bad that I wasn't able to be there for my family because this lady was like a pillar in our family.

Remie Jones: 34:24

And so I was like, yeah, I wanna go. And then he described to me how they would take me to this funeral. And I just got so mad. I was like man, fuck off, like I don't wanna go. Because what he said was they would put me in an orange one piece jumpsuit that said Ohio Department of Rehabilitation and Corrections inmate on the back of it, and then they would handcuff me and then they would shackle me on my ankles and they would cuff my handcuffs to my waist. They would put a chain around my waist and cuff it together and then two armed guards would escort me to this funeral.

Remie Jones: 35:09

But I had to wait until it was over and then nobody was inside and I could go and view my grandmother if there was an open casket or whatever, if it was closed. And I just remember like, and I gotta pay for it, I gotta pay for the sheriff to transport me. So I'm sitting here thinking like I'm gonna go all this trouble and I'm gonna travel like 400 miles to go to the other side of the state, to walk into an empty room and look at a dead person in a box with two armed guards while I'm in a monkey suit. Like fuck off, man, let me go back to my cell. And I was really mad and I went to my cell man, I didn't know how to process it and it wasn't until like maybe a month later we actually cried. And it was like totally unexpected. I don't know what happened. Like I was going to get some ice and I just felt like, oh shit, what's happening to me, and I like ran back to my cell real quick and closed the door and I like started crying and that was weird. Never experienced that before.

Remie Jones: 36:20

So after that, in order to not have to deal with that cause, the last thing most people wanna do in prison is show some vulnerability Like you got nobody to talk to in there. You know people will take advantage if you open up too much and disclose the wrong information, like they will use that against you, and so I stopped caring. I really forced myself to stop caring, and that was sad, you know, because the next death that I had was my niece and I felt bad for like 10 minutes and they were like, do you wanna go to the funeral? I was like, no, I'm cool, and that was it. And then, you know, I ended up losing a aunt.

Remie Jones: 37:13

You know I lost some. Like my mom was talking about, hey, we're going to Florida. You know I'm sorry you can't count on, but I'm like y'all I'm cool. Like you know, I lost a cousin. I lost some friends that were close to me and it was just like it is what it is and you never really know how you're gonna get the news. Like I was just random conversations with people from the same city as me and they like, hey, yo, you know so-and-so. I'm like, yeah, bro, it's my cousin. Oh yeah, shit, man, before he died, man, that was my knee. Like, oh, what when he died? I'm like two years ago, what you know.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 37:55

Yeah.

Remie Jones: 37:56

Wow, you know, most often it was my mother, my mother, you know I call her and she's like well, you know, so-and-so them past. Oh well, I seen your friend so-and-so on the news and they got shot. Oh, I seen you. Yo, I talked to one of my friends on the phone, yo, my brother Chad man. I talked to him. Every time he like man, you know, so-and-so Like damn. But at that point it's like anyway, hey, did you take that money over there to my mom? Hey, listen, next time you come see me like it was such a non-issue by that point. And the sad part like the really sad part about it was out of losing all those people. I'd never grieved and I had like three photo albums and I just it got into the point where I never looked at them. I just kept them in the bottom of my box and I didn't address the fact that these people were gone until I came home and realized they weren't there anymore.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 39:03

Right.

Remie Jones: 39:05

Like 10 years or so past, and when I came home I was finally like damn, bro, my grandma and I here no more, man, you know.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 39:16

That one's actually really common, this pattern of grief where you just kind of so. The most two common types are like getting stuck in the loss, so you can't really process it because you're not there and all of these things. You get stuck in this pattern of not being able to let go of it or you completely detach from it in whatever way possible and basically shove it as deep down as you can because you're not gonna deal with it in that moment. It's not the time right. So your brain and your body are gonna completely separate and detach from that and make sure there's no emotion associated with it until you have to confront it, which is often significantly later. So yeah, there's a lot of components attached with. I think the other thing you were gonna talk about were mental health services, right, and how unavailable they are. I know you talked a little bit about this on the last episode in terms of it being kind of inaccessible, but also the over-medicating.

Remie Jones: 40:27

Yeah, I don't recall anybody who's sought out mental health services, especially if the case was that they needed medication and they didn't end up being overly medicated to the point where you could not even recognize them for their personality. They would be zombies or you would think, if you met them after they got on medication, you would think they had a developmental disability. And there were people that I saw later on, after we got out of prison and I'm like whole different personality, whole different energy and I'm like who is that person?

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 41:10

Yeah, I did some reading too about grief support groups and stuff that some prisons have and I thought that that was really interesting because it's kind of this similar notion that you wouldn't go and seek out mental health services because you're afraid of what that could do to you Not just the over-medicating, but you've talked about this already the things that are said can be used against you and mental health cases follow you whatever facility you go to, your entire time in prison.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 41:40

So I was reading a little bit about a prison support group for grief and while the incarcerated people that were attending thought it was really helpful, they also like had this like hyper vigilance about what it is. They were saying they used this term double bookkeeping because they basically thought everybody else who was in the group with them was talking about what it is. They said to somebody else whether that was a guard or a CEO or the sergeant or the you know their cell major or things like that they basically just assumed anything and everything that they shared in this group was going to be used against them and there was this feeling that even the group facilitator, who just came in to do this group and then left, was sharing all of their information with people. So there was, like this, this confidentiality breach that they thought was happening constantly, which I think is a really interesting yeah, it's.

Remie Jones: 42:38

Yeah, it's kind of like that, if it's a group setting, then there is a guard in the room, one at least, which you know. When it comes to confidentiality and stuff, it's like don't let it be the guard that you didn't had problems with, like you know. So it's really like everything that you share. It's very calculated, like. So, when it comes to getting that relief and being able to, like I said, be vulnerable and get the actual help you need, it's really limited when it comes to, like, group therapy.

Remie Jones: 43:18

So I mean like, yeah, like if I had to talk about some stuff that's troubling me in front of a guard and I know that there's a chance I could walk back to the block and they'll be right out front the block with five other CEOs talking shit about me, like I'm probably not gonna say anything. You know, like I'm just here so I don't get fine. But at the same time it's like you know, if you say something particularly troubling, then the aim is no longer to help you through it. But now it's like, hey, this person might be a danger. You know you can mess around and like go up for early release. You know you try to get a judicial release or something and they're like well, we were looking at your records and we feel like you have some issues that you need to work through. And then also most of the grief, counseling and stuff like that is provided by the chaplain.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 44:27

Yeah, I came up with a good list of things I wanted to like recommend to people listening, because I figure most folks listening are either we know that folks incarcerated do have access to our podcast now, but also that lots of people listening are loved ones or things like that who are supporting people in prison. So I found a really good list. But I wanted to talk about one other thing, if I could. First, I found this blog about somebody writing about their previous experiences with incarceration and they wrote one on grief. We'll link it in the show notes in case people want to go and read it for themselves.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 45:08

But I thought this excerpt was really powerful and I wondered if you could kind of speak to this too and if you had any thoughts or similar experiences. But they're talking about the death of their sister and how emotionally torturous and mentally exhausting that was because they were incarcerated at the time. And it says, quote I try to be strong when I call home and talk to my mother, comforting her the best I can through a 15 minute phone call that is constantly interrupted by prison recordings. I hear my mother's cries over the death of her child and I cry out to. Our tears are the closest thing to a hug, and I quickly wipe them away so nobody can see them while I'm on the phone, as the one minute remaining recording plays in the background.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 45:49

Yeah, I think that's so sad to think about trying to comfort this person's, trying to comfort their own mother, through the loss of somebody else that they mutually love and care for, and they have to do it through a 15 minute paid for recorded call with all of these interruptions and no ability to, yeah, conquer the divide through that. I just found that really powerful and sad as an imagery of what it's like to lose somebody while you're incarcerated and somebody else on the outside is grieving.

Remie Jones: 46:32

That's exactly right. When my grandma died, I spent more money on the phone that week than you know I had in months previous. You know, and it was because, you know, at the time a local phone call was like five or $6 a piece for 15 minutes. You know, now it's like 90 cents or something. But you know, back then it's like I got to call my mom.

Remie Jones: 47:01

I got to talk to my mom for three, four you know phone calls, and then, okay, she said it to my sister's house and my sister is really close to my grandma. So, all right, I'm going to call back in an hour and I'm going to talk to my sister for two calls. Well, then I got to call my dad because it was his mom. So now I got to call him and he's in a whole other state and those calls were like $17 a piece. So now I got to call him twice, you know, and it's like I'm trying to be there for them because you know I'm the one that has to be tough. I can't, you know, and not only to be there for them but also because I don't want them to worry about me.

Remie Jones: 47:46

You know, I got to be strong because I can't break down and have my mom or my dad or my sister's worried about me and my mental health in here. So I'm like, no, I'm cool, like I'm all right and I'm trying to be there for them and I'm blowing everything I got. You know, I was in their house and I'm like shooting tattoos and everything I could do to make money and I'm like yo just put money on my phone, you know, and it's, it's a, it's main shit. It's hard, but, like I said, though, when it comes to like grief counseling, it's like you go to the chaplain, and the chaplain you know I'm going to just say it was the chaplain at that institution because I don't want to give all of them a bad name, but basically it was like the chaplain's a Christian.

Remie Jones: 48:39

And so if you're not a Christian, then they're going to harp on you because you're not a Christian, or they're going to have fast, your programming or your services or anything else, and I don't need that shit. Yeah. Yeah, there was only like two chaplains out of the four institutions that were like really good, but anyway, that's here and there.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 49:08

Oh, I think that's important yeah.

Remie Jones: 49:10

That a lot of the good programs, whether it's grief or community or anything else like, they're basically volunteer or like private people.

Remie Jones: 49:26

That come in to run programs and stuff it's not like provided by the institution which is interesting because we're supposed to be rehabilitating people and I actually read an article that made a really good point not just about losing people to death, but going to prison. Going to prison in general it's a very traumatic experience, whether it's your first time or your 10th time. You're losing everything. I think I said that early in this podcast. One of the early episodes is like you're going through stuff. You're losing your whole life.

Remie Jones: 50:09

For however long, you're losing your relationship, whether it's your girlfriend, boyfriend, husband, wife, partner, whatever your parents, even if they're not dead, there's going to be some sort of fracture and you're trying to wrap your head around it. Whether you got shit to lose or not, you're like all of us put on hold while I go do this presence in this. So you're grieving in a way, and the point of the article was like if we focus more on helping those people grieve on their way in, they might have an easier time while in prison and be more productive and have an easier time going home. To be more productive, because grieving properly is a life skill and, like DJ said, some people get really hung up on it and they cannot get past it. That is a skill they need to learn. They need help learning it, because they're not going to learn on their own unless they do it like I did, which is completely stop caring, and that is not the way to do it.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 51:21

I think it's important that maybe you want to talk about this, maybe you don't that it was really hard for you in transitioning home to find those emotions for people again, like being able to connect in that way, like have that emotional attachment in that capacity was sometimes tricky for you after coming home.

Remie Jones: 51:43

It's still tricky for me, not just with grieving, because I was the type of person that and I still do this sometimes, so sorry if I'm revealing something that you don't know. I'm the type of person that when I have something good, I run through every single scenario I can think of about losing it.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 52:04

Yes, you do.

Remie Jones: 52:06

Because I had to in prison, right Like I was engaged in there, but in my mind I had already grieved over the fact that she cheated on me. She left me, she like whatever way I could possibly lose her. I grieved about it and I was still in a perfectly fine relationship, you know. But when it finally came to where we separated, I was like, all right, man, that's cool, I understand. And she was looking at me like what? Like I already, this already happened 10,000 times in my head, like I'm cool, and that's what happened when people died. People died and I was like, damn, it's fucked up, man, all right, that was the end of it.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 52:49

Right.

Remie Jones: 52:51

And that is really unhealthy, because now I'm here, I'm home, I've been home five years and yet when I see people that are like genuinely like, just writhing in pain over this emotional trauma, I kind of just blank out because I don't know how to comfort them. I can't relate Like that shit don't happen to me. So I kind of just like stiffen up and glaze over like yo, you, you, cool, I'm just not going to say anything. Hopefully they'll start talking again.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 53:23

A thousand percent yeah.

Remie Jones: 53:24

That's me and I. I try to be more communicative in how I'm feeling.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 53:33

Yeah, you've gotten tons better, but I think reconnecting with that has been a challenge. I mean because you disconnected it for 10 years. So I mean not only that, but rewiring that is hard.

Remie Jones: 53:44

I'm also a very logical based person and I'm not really too in touch with you know, emotional maturity. So now I'm like, okay, I got to communicate more, right, but just saying the stuff is not good, I'm like yo, I just said it because that's what it is Like.

Remie Jones: 54:08

no, you said like an asshole, Like no, I didn't, I just said it. I didn't have any tone at all, which is what made me an asshole. I wasn't like oh, I'm so sorry. I was like, damn, that's fucked up. We should do a future episode on prison scars.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 54:31

I think it's really interesting.

Remie Jones: 54:33

Oh for sure That'll be a good episode.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 54:35

I do so I found this list. In this obviously is we're talking about kind of disconnecting and turning off these emotions and stuff, recognizing that about your loved one who may be incarcerated, or, if you're an incarcerated person, saying, oh, that's me. You know, not all of these strategies are going to work for everybody.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 54:51

I hope that helps you. But I thought this was a kind of interesting list. Some of it's kind of take it or leave it. We'll post this pamphlet too, this link to this, so people have access to it if you're interested. But this is written by two chaplains, right, but it's not written from the capacity of it being Christian. So the other component of this is these individuals are One is an RN, which is a registered nurse. The other one has a PhD in nursing, so they're coming at this from more of a clinical perspective in addition to having their chaplain Chaplain.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 55:31

So in this list I thought the interesting ones were you talked about the viewing process and how that was offered to you, and they kind of go through that in this. They kind of set that up like hey, if you go, you're going to look like this and you're not going to be able to grieve with your family. They said so. Maybe an alternative to that is you can send a card Like postmark, a card to the funeral home or you do something like that. So it's like participating without participating.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 55:58

Some people say that they had success in going to the viewing because it gave them a chance to be with their loved one.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 56:05

But they also offered that, while that scenario is not ideal to show up in your orange jumpsuit and your shackles, maybe it's when you have that 15-minute phone call with your loved one. You ask them to give something to your loved one on your behalf. So if you and your grandma always had a love for this specific thing, maybe they can go out and purchase that for you and leave it in the coffin on your behalf. So they were looking for alternatives really to make it. So you were there, but you didn't have to come in your shackles, which would be. I can't imagine that that would be enjoyable or how anybody would want to go and see their loved one. It talks about how you can request chaplain services during the time of the funeral. I don't know that that's true for every facility, but I think it's good that people know that that's accessible. But it's also I thought this one was good that family members, loved ones, you can send the program of the service in so you can mail that in to your loved one.

Remie Jones: 57:12

Yes, I still have the photo albums that I mentioned, and so I have the service, whatever they're called.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 57:23

Bulletin program.

Remie Jones: 57:25

Program. I have them for my grandmother's stuff.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 57:28

So having something tangible from this thing helps it to feel real, like, hey, it happened. So that kind of helps in making it a reality, since they didn't get to attend. But also it gives them something to review, like what songs did they sing? So now I can sing that song in my head, right, because that makes me feel closer to grandma. Or what readings did they do? And maybe I can go seek those out. And just having something tangible is always really nice. So that might be something that you can do. You can also take videos. As we mentioned, there are tablets now and other ways to do that. So what this Bulletin is saying or what this pamphlet is saying, is that at this particular facility in Virginia, if you take a video of a service, you can send that in, and of course it gets reviewed by the staff first, but then, if they deem it's okay, then you get to watch the video. So that's an alternative to attending. You get to kind of see what happened and then this is the big one that they recommended for the incarcerated individuals that are going to.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 58:31

Through the death, through the loss, through the grief, is writing, which we talk about a lot. They talk about meditation in here and I think that's good. They talk about attending funerals or religious services and all of that's good and important. But I liked the thought of this writing because, as we talked about a lot this episode, sharing your feelings with somebody may feel not safe. Showing that vulnerability is a hard thing to do in prison, not because it's hard to have emotion, but because it might be unsafe physically to do so. It might incur violence, it may give you a mental health record, it might be used against you. It's all of these things.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 59:09

But writing is a thing that you can do. That's cathartic and kind of good for the body in terms of ejecting some of this feeling. So they're saying that handwriting and just kind of spilling it all out, whether it's grammatically correct or not, is a way that somebody can start to heal. So if you've got a loved one and you're going through this loss and the 15-minute phone calls with recorded interruptions are not the place where you're kind of working through these feelings I know that's hard to believe Maybe you can encourage your loved one to kind of just put it on paper whether they share that with somebody or not. Putting it out and ejecting it out of their body is a good practice, so, and it's rhythmic. Those were some of the suggestions that stood out to me, and I wanted to share them here as kind of a way to wrap up.

Remie Jones: 1:00:00

Thanks, I don't know. I don't know. Like I said, I just turned it off, so I can't imagine trying to do one of the alternatives, but I hope that anybody that is in that position that needs some help try it out. If it works, let us know right in. We dropped the email in the outro and with that, and if you have any other experiences, like supporting anybody through grief while they're incarcerated, or if you've been incarcerated and had to go through that yourself, drop a line.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 1:00:43

We would love to hear what worked for you. Or, hey, this didn't work at all for me. I want to pass that along. Or here's a bad experience I had. Or hey, I did actually go out to the funeral and here's what it was like. Any of those things are important and impactful and if you share them and give us permission, then we will read them as part of the lead-in to our next episode as a follow-up. So, if you give us permission, of course, if you would rather just write that experience into us, we'd love to support you in whatever way possible and kind of just sharing that community and reading and being a part of that. That's fine and good too. So that's it for us.

Remie Jones: 1:01:17

That's it, man. Thank you all for tuning in and spending this hour with us for this episode. Love you guys for your continued support and with that man I will say goodbye, bye Peace.

Debbie "DJ" Jones: 1:01:38

The Lockdown to Legacy podcast is proud to be a part of the Buzzsprout Podcast Community Network. Lockdown to Legacy is recorded at Kohatch in their lovely audiophile room. Thanks for your scholarship. Audio engineering is done by our very own Remy Jones. You can reach us with any feedback, questions, comments or share the love by emailing stories at lockdown, the number two legacycom Stories at lockdown to legacycom. You can reach out there too for a free sticker, and you can find us on Instagram and Twitter with the handle at lockdown to legacy and on Facebook at the lockdown to legacy podcast. Thanks for listening.