The Yuletide Struggle for Joy in Incarceration

As the holiday lights glimmer beyond prison walls, Debbie and I, your seasoned hosts, bring you stories of resilience and reinvention from within the American prison system. With a blend of raw emotion and unexpected moments of joy, we lay bare the complex realities faced by inmates during the festive season. From intimate holiday rituals to the heartache of separation, we delve into the personal narratives that reveal the human spirit's capacity to find solidarity and hope in the face of adversity.

Journey with us into the emotional landscape of incarceration, where the act of calling home stirs a cauldron of mixed feelings. The holidays, while a time for cheer on the outside, often magnify loneliness and the stark reality of life behind bars. Yet, through creativity and memory, prisoners forge their own versions of holiday cheer, crafting makeshift decorations and engaging in cherished pastimes. We share tales of forming unexpected bonds over shared meals and the ingenious ways inmates keep the holiday spirit flickering in the shadows of confinement.

Beyond the penitentiary's perimeter, we consider the ripple effects of incarceration on families and communities. We examine the transformative potential of bipartisan reform efforts and the journey from lockdown to legacy. Our conversation invites you to grapple with the emotional aftereffects of time served, as well as the bittersweet challenges of reentry and reconciliation. In this episode we offer you a glimpse into the tenacity and adaptability that define the quest for a legacy beyond the cell.

Some of the articles mentioned in this episode include:

Gluhwein Recipe:
- https://www.ohiomagazine.com/food-drink/article/how-to-make-mozart-s-cafe-gluhwein

Ohio Pardon Program:
- https://governor.ohio.gov/priorities/expedited-pardon-project

- https://governor.ohio.gov/media/news-and-media/ohio-governors-expedited-pardon-project-surpasses-100-pardons-for-reformed-citizens

The article we were reading from is:
- https://prisonjournalismproject.org/2022/12/22/an-incarcerated-christmas/

Expanded Essay referenced:
-

Transcript

Remie: 0:19

Welcome to Lockdown the Legacy stories from the inside out. I'm your host, remy Jones.

DJ: 0:25

And I'm co-host Debbie Jones. We are a husband and wife team here to bring you the real life stories, experiences and questions around the American criminal justice system. We do advise discretion with this podcast. I think we should put that out there first and foremost. We are going to talk about experiences that happen inside the prison system, outside of prison systems. We will use language that might be offensive, but we intend to keep it real, and if that's not for you, we totally understand, but please do what's best for your listening ears.

Remie: 0:56

Oh, we're about to keep it real, son. Our goal of this podcast is to share the inside realities of the American prison and criminal justice system, from pre-charges all the way to post-release, from the voices of those who've experienced it firsthand, including me.

DJ: 1:12

That's right, we're going to get into it.

Remie: 1:31

Welcome back to another episode of Lockdown to Legacy. I'm your host, the very much consistent and not too exciting Remy Jones.

DJ: 1:42

I am DJ.

Remie: 1:45

Who introduced herself this week Progress.

DJ: 1:48

Whatever?

Remie: 1:50

I think that little pause where, after I introduce myself, I'm going to find some like applause sound effects and throw it in there. Just a crowd going nuts. But anyway, glad to have you all back. Of course it is the holiday season and if you're tired of us talking about it already, just tell us. But until then we're going to keep it going. Any news besides the already stated news?

DJ: 2:19

I think this is going to be a little bit of a different feel of an episode. Yeah, I'm excited for this format, so we'll see, we'll test it out, we'll see how it goes.

Remie: 2:30

Cool.

DJ: 2:31

Anything you are reading, listening to right now.

Remie: 2:37

I'm actually listening to a lot of stuff. You know, of course I made my post about how Spotify told me I'm in like the top 0.4% of big create listeners. He just came out with another EP, so I'm listening to that. And then I got a lot of audio books that I've been listening to a mostly, mostly short ones, but I listened to some fiction. You know, I got some fiction writers that I liked from before when I used to listen to, I mean, when I used to read a lot.

DJ: 3:15

We are listening slash reading a book together.

Remie: 3:19

Yep, Actually I'm about halfway through that. We're good on that.

DJ: 3:23

Yeah, about halfway.

Remie: 3:24

Cool, we got some talks that we need to have what's that book title again.

DJ: 3:29

That book is called Rare Breed.

Remie: 3:31

A.

DJ: 3:31

Guide to Success for the Defiant, dangerous and Differential Different. So probably not your traditional couples book study. That is by Sunny Bonnell and Ashley Hansberger. So if folks are interested, I had to get this one at the library. We were able to get it on Audible but you can't buy a hard copy of it. It was really hard for me to find, so got them at the library, but we're about halfway through so we'll give a full update at the end to see if we still recommend it.

Remie: 4:07

Yeah, so far I think it's a decent read. I mean, with all self-help books you get to that point where it's like the shit's all common sense. But that is the case with most of life. It's common sense and yet we still don't do it, and so we got to hear somebody else tell us it's the good thing to do.

DJ: 4:28

I think you got to pick your things out of it that you need right. I think most self-help is also that it's not going to 100% apply to your circumstances, but take the things that are applicable, leave the things that aren't and move it forward. So yeah, that's what we're reading. What else are we doing?

Remie: 4:47

I'm reading a lot about becoming a vegetarian again mostly vegetarian. I figured I would like stick to it and then on occasion treat myself to mostly fish. So I don't know if that makes me a pescetarian or if it just makes me a cheating vegetarian. What?

DJ: 5:08

is that a flexitarian?

Remie: 5:10

Flexitarian is what they called in one of the books. I thought about doing keto too, but Debbie tell me it's not that good for you.

DJ: 5:18

No, I did keto for a long time. That's how I lost a really significant amount of weight.

Remie: 5:23

That's how she snagged me. I was like damn, who's that?

DJ: 5:28

It's not the same now.

Remie: 5:29

No, I still see that as soon as you walk in the room I'll be like on the bed, like damn.

DJ: 5:35

It's not sustainable. It's not a sustainable diet from my perspective. Don't all the keto folks come after me or anything. It just to me-.

Remie: 5:45

They know where you live?

DJ: 5:46

Yeah, it wasn't. It was not the lifestyle that made sense to me. So, looking at other things, I'm not looking at vegetarianism, but it's nice that you are.

Remie: 6:02

I'm just trying to get healthier.

DJ: 6:05

Yeah, I understand it's another year of the Expedited Pardon program. Did you know that?

Remie: 6:16

I didn't Wait a minute. Is that the one I was going to apply for? Yeah, okay.

DJ: 6:20

Do you want to talk a little bit about it?

Remie: 6:23

before I jump into it. Yeah, so actually this is a program that I learned about through our friend of the podcast, Sullivan Rogers, who was featured on our legacy series in the summer. It's pretty sweet. It's a partnership between a few universities University of Akron and Ohio State University among them and, of course, the governor. They have all come together to say that people's backgrounds are standing in their way of being all that they can be, and they figure if you're qualified for a job and your background has nothing to do with that job, then there should be no reason why it's stopping you from getting it. So they are allowing people to apply for a part.

DJ: 7:16

Yes, so this program was launched in 2019. As of yesterday.

DJ: 7:22

well, let's think about when this is going to be, aired as of this week, there are I want to make sure I get this number right 108 individuals that have received expedited partons, and so regular partons are still a thing you can apply for, of course, but this program in particular is aimed at simplifying and expediting the lengthy process in which individuals who have been home for 10 years can apply for a pardon. So 108 people have received their expedited partons through this program as of December 2023, which is really, really cool. There was a quote in here I was going to read, but do you want to talk about? You chose not to apply right now, right, Because of eligibility.

Remie: 8:14

Right, so I didn't really choose not to apply. But while I was going over the paperwork and stuff that I had to fill out, I did see that one of the requirements is that you have to be out of prison for 10 years and, as you all know, I have only been out for five. I meet every other eligibility requirement but that one, so just had to put it on the shelf.

DJ: 8:42

I heard you could still apply for a regular pardon under those circumstances, though I was doing some reading and preparation for this, so that might be something to consider while you're waiting for those five years to be up, but this program was launched in partnership originally with the Ohio Department of Rehabilitation and Correction, the Ohio State University Moritz College of Law, Drug Enforcement and Policy Center and the University of Akron School of Law. This program expanded in 2021 to include higher education support from Cleveland State University, Cleveland Marshall College of Law, the University of Dayton School of Law and the Ohio Justice and Policy Center, in partnership with the University of Cincinnati College of Law. Since 2019, 327 applicants have met the criteria to participate within the pardon program and 200 cases are currently in various stages of the application process, with 108 approvals.

Remie: 9:37

That's dope, that's really cool right. Congratulations to those people, man, because I understand how big of an impact that will have on their lives.

DJ: 9:46

Yeah, I loved this quote within the article that we were sent today as part of the State of Ohio. One of the recipients was Gene Hill of Miami County, and Hill says when I received my pardon, I cried like a baby. Yeah, it's like. He says it's up there with the birth of my children and my daughter being valedictorian of her class. It's a phenomenal feeling.

Remie: 10:14

For sure. I mean to be honest, even like I understand why they're doing it and it's all based on creating more productive citizens, getting people those jobs that they're eligible for. But even if, like myself, I'm gainfully employed and getting it off my record really won't help me in the employment aspect, but there's so many parts of your life that will be better just by not having it on your record.

DJ: 10:45

Right.

Remie: 10:46

I mean I don't really worry about it, but I know that Debbie worries about it a lot Like if I get pulled over at a traffic stop and they wanted to just run my name through the database, most likely they're not going to come back. Still chipper like hey man, just be safe out there. It's all like you physically see the body language change, where the hands resting on their holster and stuff and like dude, I'm no threat to you, man, but what you see and what you read in a computer database doesn't have any context.

DJ: 11:20

Yes.

Remie: 11:21

You know, they look at that and they say this is who you are, and they totally forget about the person in front of them once they see that.

DJ: 11:27

Yes, it does scare me a lot. I think this is another quote that kind of resonates with what you're saying. So another recipient was Carla Thomas of Summit County and she writes quote in the letters I wrote to the governor I asked for grace. I've accomplished so many things but I was living with this black cloud over my head. To get a pardon after two decades feels amazing. I have a second shot at life now.

Remie: 11:52

Yeah, I mean and not to mention all the things that we talked about early in this podcast. I mean, if you guys haven't been listening that long, please go and listen to some of those early episodes where we talked about the roadblocks. When you have a felony on your record and you're trying to get housing and they're saying, no, you can't live here because you're a felon. Or when you're trying to get a job and they're like no, you can't work here because you're a felon. You know it's like everywhere you turn, people are saying like, no, you're not welcome here. And that is very what's the word I'm looking for. Not unnerving, was it?

DJ: 12:38

It's on the tip of my tongue, really, what I'm trying to say is I can't pull it for you, I'm sorry.

Remie: 12:49

It's hard to continue trying to do the right thing when everybody keeps bringing up that thing from the past, and I'm pretty sure that's a reason why everybody just goes back to what they were doing. You know, because it's like you have to muster a lot of courage in order to actually step into that change.

Remie: 13:10

You have to understand that it's not going to be easy and a lot of people are going to tell you no and a lot of people are going to still tag you to what you used to be known for. So it takes a lot of courage to even try to change in the first place. But discouraging is the word I was looking for.

DJ: 13:28

I was going to say deterring.

Remie: 13:31

Discouraging, because after so many times you know especially the ones you really have hope for you like, man, I think I'm really going to get this. And then they're like, nah, man, you know, why don't you explain this? And then they still tell you, you know, like you jump through the hoops, you do everything. And you like, hey, man, look, I'm really a good person. This is all the stuff I did to change. And they're like, yeah, but unfortunately we don't care.

Remie: 13:55

I ran into a couple of instances where I went for job applications. I walked in and I owned it that I had these felonies. I brought it up first, before we ever even went in the office, and they were like, oh, unfortunately we don't hire felons at all. I was like, great, I'm on my way to work, man, thanks for your time. Later on they pulled my application and they're like hey, why don't you come work here? I'm like, yo, I already applied there. You guys told me, no, you know which Sullivan said was the same experience with him. Like, once they get that official, like, oh, they work over there at our competitor and they're doing great things. Well, we get them over here, right. But you've already, you know, beat me down and told me I wasn't worth it. Why would I come over here? Yeah?

DJ: 14:41

Um. The other factor that I think is really cool about this program in Ohio is that the law has changed since the creation of the program, and so it automatically allows Governor DeWine to seal the records of those who have received a pardon, and folks can be grandfathered into that, so it doesn't just apply from like here forward. It's like anybody since, um, like they can go back and, uh, anybody pardon before September 2021 can go back and take the steps to have their record sealed as well If they've been pardoned, which I think is that's the extra step, right, because it's not enough just to have a pardon. It still shows up on your record, so having a pardon in conjunction with a sealment of that record is really like, I don't know, it's the golden ticket, right. Wonka just came out, so I'm trying to pull my Willy Wonka references.

Remie: 15:37

Well, what I've learned, also when I was doing the paperwork, is, even if you're not eligible for a pardon, you still might be eligible for getting your record sealed. So it's kind of both ways, which is great Also.

DJ: 15:51

Yep, yep. So I wanted to make sure we gave that a shout out. I don't know, um, quite honestly, what these projects look like in other states, but I think for um a purple, um, more often reading leaning red state. Um, I think what this shows is there is a um unity around wanting to redefine what post incarceration looks like, and a commitment to that on both sides of the aisle. Um, so I'm excited for this to be happening here, and I hope that what it does is that states that typically look to Ohio and Ohio is like policy and political um kind of agendas can say oh, this is something we could easily duplicate in our own state. So, um, I have really good hopes for that.

Remie: 16:46

I hope it catches on. Um, I think it's very important because, um, as much as it's kind of like when we talked about inside the prison, it's like you got the security people, and the security people are the people who are always worried about a threat even when it's no indication that it's one brewing.

DJ: 17:06

They're like we can't do that, we can't get lax because it's a threat, you know.

Remie: 17:11

So I understand why people you know want access to your criminal history, and they, you know, but um, especially old criminal history, you know, when you got 10 years, 15 years, 20 years of nothing. You know my uncle, my uncle went up to um Niagara Falls and crossing the Canada and they detained him because he had a felony from the eighties.

DJ: 17:38

Right.

Remie: 17:40

And he's like pretty prominent in his his community now and they had him like entertainment and everything and it's like a stupid.

DJ: 17:50

Yeah, that this thing can affect your life like that, like over two decades later or, you know, three decades later or whenever that was like that's it seems.

Remie: 18:00

Now, if you got a, a drug charge from six months ago, from a year ago, they might be like hey, you know, we're not sure if we want you living here. We're not sure if you want to travel in here or whatever you know, but the eighties you know, 2008, like come on man, come on, yeah, that's. There's no reason why that should stop anybody from getting housing or a job or traveling or anything.

DJ: 18:25

Right, I mean without context.

Remie: 18:27

At the same time, we're putting all this pressure on them to why don't you just be a productive citizen? Because you're stopping me from doing it?

DJ: 18:35

I actually can't because you're limiting that, but I mean I tried, I applied.

Remie: 18:41

I don't know what to tell you.

DJ: 18:42

Yes, it's a, it's a huge, it's more than a double standard, right, so you can't really tell how you're doing yeah, so I wanted to give some shout out to that. I think it's important that we highlight the positive things going on, while we also champion and create, call to action for the things that still need reforming.

Remie: 19:01

I have one more thing to share before we change subject. When I first got into car sales and they gave me the job, even though I was like fresh out of prison, I felt like they still tried to use the fact that I had a felony to hang over my head, like to get me to do all the grunt work or just to accept any type of wage, even though I deserve more. And when I stood up and asked for it, like hey man, you guys made these promises, it's time to come through, and they were basically like fuck off, like what are you gonna do? You gonna go somewhere else?

DJ: 19:42

Yeah.

Remie: 19:43

And I did. But once I did it was like oh wait, hey, never mind, we can do this. And I was like nah, don't worry about it. But I mean, it's just one more reason, like, even if you do have employment, like getting that off your record could possibly open up even better doors for you, right, right.

DJ: 20:04

Definitely. Could I mean obviously decrease the stigma, right Cause it's not, it's like it doesn't exist. So nobody can hold that over you. Nobody can, yeah, still open that up and see it and peruse those things. So, yeah, I was excited about that to see that drop into my mailbox the other day, yeah, so we wanted to highlight that. I'm gonna try to pull some of those things more often, cause there are really great things around reform going on around the United States and globally. We did a whole two episodes last season on Belize. We were just actually going through our Facebook memories. We were in Belize this time of year, last year when we were supposed to be in Egypt. So if you missed those episodes and you're like, wait what, go back and listen to, was it called you? Better Belize it.

Remie: 20:56

Unbelievable.

DJ: 20:57

Unbelievable part one and part two.

Remie: 21:00

Yeah, those are some great fun episodes.

DJ: 21:04

But there are really good things going on globally, like we highlight in those episodes around Belize and their prison system and incarceration system. But there's other good types of reform happening. So we shouldn't just focus on the doom and the gloom, but also let you know where the changes are happening, keep hope alive a little bit.

Remie: 21:24

So yeah, now I know that our Puerto Rico trip was many moons ago it seems like but I think we should still do an episode about that, because we had some real cool funny stuff happen there too. I almost died.

DJ: 21:40

I fell off a scooter. She almost died. I didn't almost die, I just fell off a scooter.

Remie: 21:45

I thought she was gonna die, but anyway, those are little. What do they call those? Like attention grabbers, cliffhangers. You might get it, you might not, who knows.

DJ: 21:58

Who knows?

Remie: 21:59

If I'm feeling benevolent.

DJ: 22:01

This is a good opportunity for us to pause and take a sip of our gule wine, gudu vine, and then we can change our topics.

Remie: 22:12

All right, before we get into the real stuff, I just wanna give a quick shout out to Brothers Dreg Meadery, local here to Columbus, ohio. I am a member. You know one of the. It's free to be a member, so if you guys check it out, decide you like it, please sign up for their membership. Quarterly they send out some of their free I mean some of their new recipes and stuff, and I just got mine today. So I'm looking forward to checking that out. Now, if that's out of the way, we can get down to the business.

DJ: 22:49

I was gonna say I just mentioned gule wine, or gudu vine, and I didn't actually explain what that is. So if you are interested in wine, mozart's, which is a local Columbus restaurant, also is famous for this recipe, which is a spiced hot wine, so we will post the link to their recipe. I think it's a great thing to have this time of year.

Remie: 23:13

It's also sweet.

DJ: 23:14

It's sweet, it's warm, it's got some citrus in there, some cinnamon, some clove and of course, the wine. But you're heating up the wine so it's not as high of alcohol content. So anyway, that's our drink of choice tonight. While we record this for you all, first, before we jump into our content, we have a corrections corner that I stole from my favorite murder. I wanna make sure I give attribution.

DJ: 23:38

Last week, in an episode we mentioned that there was a potential active shooter at our children's hospital, a stealthy listener who listened to our episodes wrote in and said hey, that was actually a false alarm, and so we are correcting that there was no active shooter at our children's hospital in Columbus. But the sentiment remains the same that these things are kind of on the rise and just because it didn't happen last week doesn't mean it can't happen and that we do see these mental health kind of crises increase at this time of year. So it was a false alarm. It was an old man who was carrying something that looked like a gun, and so they called an active shooter drill or an active shooter alert. I should say so.

Remie: 24:21

That sucks. Yeah, I was just trying to mind his business man. People need to do that.

DJ: 24:29

So this week for you we have something a little bit different. It is the holidays. We did not prepare a lot of content for this because, like you, I assume for most of our listeners we are in the heavy of this season. So again, whether you celebrate or not, the holidays are present and they are at our door, and so we've been on the go, we've been preparing for our Kwanzaa celebrations next week and all of the things. So instead we're gonna do a little bit something different.

DJ: 25:01

Our friends over at the Prison Journalism Project oh my goodness, the Prison Journalism Project, which is independent journalism by the incarcerated so that is a great site for you to go and check out they have collected kind of reflections on what it means to be incarcerated over Christmas, and since that's the holiday that is the closest, we decided to kind of focus on that also because it's a really big one that's celebrated here in the United States. So they have brought these reflections on celebrating the holidays inside, and what we've chosen to do is read from that article these experiences and direct quotes, and then Rami's gonna jump in and kind of share his own experiences in a combination with those perspectives.

Remie: 25:51

Yeah, Now just to be clear, this is the Prison Journalism Projectorg. So if you guys type in dot com or something might take you to a different place. Just wanna make sure you guys got the right place.

DJ: 26:06

And because it's independent journalism by the incarcerated, there are tons of stories on here that are really well written. They provide that insider perspective and so dive deep into here, contribute if you so feel led. They have some donation things, but we just felt like why should we try to create some content when we could amplify the voices of those who have experienced it? So, and again, these are just a small collection. We understand that no two prisoners experience a holiday is the same way. Some are eager, some are depressed, some are isolated, some are excited. There's a spectrum of emotions that are associated with that, but we're gonna share some of these reflections with you.

Remie: 26:49

All right, all right.

DJ: 26:52

This first one is called why I Don't Call Home on the Holidays and Heather writes I hate calling home on the holidays, not because I don't miss my family, not because the phone lines are forever long, not because my family doesn't want me to. It simply hurts to call. It hurts to hear my family together If by chance they aren't. It hurts even more because I long to be the one that keeps us together. I blame myself for their distance. I want to pull my family back together. So it hurts when they take for granted the blessing of simply being around each other. If only they knew how much I would cherish the bickering, my Aunt Tracy's gravy, our homemade noodles crafted by members of four generations. I daydream about the flour, the fallen meringue, a trashed kitchen after a day well used. I daydream until it hurts. That's why I don't call. I can't imagine not being there If I pretended.

DJ: 27:48

As a normal day I get through it. The chow hall attempts a better meal than usual but always fails. Sometimes they play a movie and the lights get dimmed. Mostly I sleep on holidays. I have slept through nine years of holidays. I have refused to acknowledge I am not there, but this is my last season away. It's harder because it is so close. I feel so anxious, like a little kid on Christmas Eve. I can't sleep. It's so close, it hurts Again. That's from Heather C Jarvis in Ohio.

Remie: 28:21

Yeah, I would love to get Heather a shout out but she wouldn't hear it. But kudos to her for sharing that and it's valid. Man, it's valid. I try to tell people you're one of two types. I feel You're the person who has to call home and you're standing in that line that's like 20 people long, or you're one of those people that's like I, like the phones don't even exist and there are a lot of people of each category. I can't say that I'll belong to one or the other. I'm sure it changed throughout the years depending on who was in my life at the time. But also a large part of my family hasn't celebrated holidays, so that made it kind of easier.

Remie: 29:13

During the holidays I would normally call, like my friends or friends' parents, or like my girlfriend at the time I would call her and her parents because my parents really didn't care.

Remie: 29:26

My dad, he's helping with holidays, but I mean, it wasn't ever consistent. You go through a lot of ups and downs in prison and the hurt of not being there is legit. There were times where I would call and it's like everybody's there and they would pass the phone around and that's kind of cool. Like I talked to my mom. I talked to my sisters maybe my oldest nephew but as the years went on I stopped calling because that phone being passed around, I got nephews that I never met before and they're all awkward because they're forced to talk to me on the phone and then like hi, uncle Mimi, I love you. And they like never see my face in person and that hurts, it really hurts. And then you hear all the stuff going on in the background and stuff. It's like I'm just kind of in the way by calling, I'm just in the way I'm interrupting their celebration.

DJ: 30:32

All right. I like how Heather kind of talks about here at the end this being her last season, their last season, I should say away, and that it's harder because it's close, even if you weren't celebrating. What was that last holiday season like? In the December before the May that you went home?

Remie: 30:54

Was that worse? Actually had a lot of people ask me this while I was still in prison. As they got closer, they asked me about everything Like are you excited? Like, can you sleep at night? Can you like anything? And it was the same. I refused to allow it to be different.

Remie: 31:16

One thing that I will say, even to your detriment in the end one thing that will always get you through prison is routine. So I made sure that I made routines that would get me through and leave me in a positive mostly positive place. I talked about how my workout routine and getting up and making my bed, eating at a certain time and doing this, school and all this other stuff Anything to fill the time and make it routine. So to the point where I couldn't tell today from yesterday. I didn't look at calendar or calendars. I didn't look at none of that. I missed my birthday a few times. That's a funny story. Call my friend Mickey and she answers the phone singing happy birthday. And I'm annoyed because I'm like stop answering the phone if you're busy. She's like I'm singing to you.

Remie: 32:14

But those last holidays and even the last days before I got released, I went about my same routine as if nothing was different If I called home on a holiday. I called home just as normal If I didn't. Actually, I will say that that was one thing, that the holidays, right before I got out, I didn't call home because I was like I'm gonna see you soon anyway, don't worry about it. I told my family don't come visit, don't put money on my books, I'll be home soon anyway. But that was the last few months before I got out, because I got enough money to last me. I was selling my belongings. I had stuff that were pretty highly coveted in there, like a velour blanket, a bathroom, like dude, let me get that blanket, let me get them. Shoes, let me get. I'm like hell, yeah, you can have all of it. It sold my TV and everything. So the closer it got, slowly stuff started disappearing, but my routine remained the same.

DJ: 33:18

Mm-hmm. This next one is called there's no Crying in Prison. Everything about the environment in prison can make you feel deficient. The holidays are a particularly stressful time for prisoners and their loved ones. This is the season when the constant separation and the regret become especially painful, so it's no surprise that prisoners experience mental health problems. But in prison it's not okay to cry. Actually, it's not okay to show any emotion openly, whether it's elation or despair. Such expressions of emotion are considered weakness, something a predator will prey upon. Mental health services exist, but there's an unspoken law not to use them. One may think the administration runs the prison, but the administration is only in charge until certain players, usually gangs, decide they have had enough of their nonsense. Any mental health crisis that a prisoner endures is most likely one they will have to deal with on their own, even during the holidays. That's from Timothy Monk in Arizona.

Remie: 34:20

Now, I know it's different everywhere, but there's some things I would like to disagree with.

DJ: 34:26

Go ahead.

Remie: 34:29

Of course, everything about the separation and the anxiety and stuff and the pain, like that's all valid In prison. It is not okay to cry. Now, I'm sure that's different in a female prison because from what I've heard, there is a lot of community that goes on in there. But in men's prison you don't wanna cry. You don't wanna cry on the open, you wanna sneak off somewhere, get it out of the system and come back with a straight face. But when it comes to showing elation and being happy and stuff like that, that's not something that people consider a weakness necessarily. But remember that you're in a place surrounded by the have-nots. So when you're showing that you're happy about something, people become jealous, people get mad at that, like Like there was an unspoken rule. Like when you get a parole or when you get an early release granted or something like that, don't tell anybody, because your surrounded by people that are not going home. You know if you got somebody that ever had a gripe with you, they're like I'm gonna still this shit, I'm gonna still on them, I'm gonna beat him up, I'm gonna do like you know whatever. Oh, he happy, he got a letter from his girl. I'm gonna go in there, I'm gonna get his girl's address. I'm gonna, you know, take some pictures of her Whatever, which is why the only thing I ever kept locked up was my photo. I Didn't lock anything else up.

Remie: 36:12

Um, I had a story. It's loosely on target, but uh, there was a guy who went to the hole and the CO asked his bonky to pack his stuff up and his bonky stole his address book and wrote down his mom and his girlfriend's address. And this dude wrote his family and posed as a friend and he told him that, yeah, you know he went to the hole, but you know I'm looking out for him and all this other stuff. And you know, you know there's a lot of gangs in here. But don't worry, I got his back and for months Since he was in the hole, this dude's family was sending money to this guy.

Remie: 36:54

Oh no and it wasn't until he eventually went to the hole and I don't know how, but it ended up coming out and you know, probably because this dude's family. Finally, how's your friend? You know he's like what friend, but, um, it's, it's just like. That's the thing you don't want to show when you're happy. Oh man, I got a visit from my girl, you know from a life, and it was great. Oh where? Yeah, oh, she is cute. How, let's do the lame, why you got a girl like that Nice, you know people are plotting on you, so you, you always got to be careful who you open up to, for the good things and the bad. There's very few times where you can cry openly or even in confidence to somebody.

DJ: 37:44

That feels like it aligns with what Timothy's saying here, like it's not. It's not just crying, that is a big deal, it's all of those emotions, and those emotions are something that people are gonna prey upon, and so I think that would make the holidays, in particular, a really tricky time. And, like he, like they say at the beginning, the holidays are particularly stressful time Because of this, this constant Feeling of like I can't be too happy, I can't be too sad, I can't be too yeah, and I don't want to say, but I just want to say that I have this. This is even less celebration.

Remie: 38:27

Don't feel today, yep, and you know I think it's devastating, mmmm, ja, and I definitely think that's is Des attentive to no thinking about him that I don't know if you know what happens, if not about going to medical at all, and they were trying to tell me how to scheme or how to get pills. I'm like I don't need that shit. They're like, no, if you take like a whole handful of them, you I'm like, bro, come down, bro, I just got some little gastrointestinal issue. You talk about taking 10 pills at once. You know, so yeah, I mean it's hard because when you actually need it, that's when people are like you're actually going to talk to somebody, nah.

DJ: 39:18

Timothy's written a part two here actually called getting by during the holidays inside, and so it says in prison you can find small doses of camaraderie during the holiday season, but this depends on whether you are a part of an accepted class. Typically, some prisoners buy a meal to eat amongst themselves and it's only shared with those they think they deserve it. If someone is considered a pariah, usually because of their crime, they won't be included. Many prisoners attempt to recreate traditions from their outside lives while incarcerated, but in prison it's hard to get even the most basic supplies for holiday observances, especially in solitary confinement. Some people create their own small paper Christmas trees out of toilet paper rolls and homemade glue. Some draw them on walls of their cells. Others take the holiday cards they receive and set them up around their cell, angling them against the base of the wall. In general, drawing or taping anything on the walls is prohibited, but people do it anyway.

Remie: 40:19

Yeah, that's actually something I forgot about, man.

DJ: 40:22

The decorating.

Remie: 40:25

Yeah, there's a lot of guys who keep, like, every greeting card they get. They'll put them in, like you know, a little Debbie box or something. Whatever it'll fit in that ahold of, and around the holidays they'll pull all of them out and they'll hang them from the ceiling. They'll, you know, run them along the base of the floor. They'll tape them to the wall.

DJ: 40:45

It's kind of their version of putting up all the lights, right, Like I mean, I think about the houses in the neighborhood that have all the blowups and all the lights and like the ones that go with the songs, and like it's kind of their way to be extra a little bit and go above and beyond, make their circumstances not so much their circumstance. They like to escape that a little bit right.

Remie: 41:07

And, like I said, though, there's some people that'll get jealous, they'll analyze it on purpose, just, you know, just to see you, you know, get a reaction, and then even the CO sometimes they'll do a shake down and you know, tear them up, some take them, whatever, because technically it is contraband.

DJ: 41:27

I mean I get it, but In a technical aspect I get it. So I'm gonna ask you this. I'm gonna answer first, though, so it gives you time to think what's the most creative type of decoration around the holidays that you saw? I was reading an article earlier where somebody talked about how they made an entire fireplace in their cell. So they collected foil for months and then made flames out of it, and they somehow had something that had this amber like light to it, so they put it behind the foil. So at nighttime it looked like the fire was lit up, and so they did that, and they kept the wrappers from I can't remember what it was something that had a red wrapper, and they put it around the foil, so it looked like bricks. So it was this rectangular wrapper.

DJ: 42:17

And they basically stuck it to the wall, so it made a fireplace and I thought that was a really creative.

Remie: 42:22

Yeah, they take their chip bags and turn them inside out Chip bags. Yeah, because it's so real.

DJ: 42:27

Yeah, yes. And then they had the I think it was donut wrappers, because the company was red and they used that as like the bricks. They collected them for months.

Remie: 42:36

And they'll take the cardboard from the back of a writing pad to you know, wrap the foil around. They'll take the tack stuff from the corner of the windows to stick it to the wall To stick it up.

DJ: 42:48

Yeah, okay, so tell me the most creative you've seen.

Remie: 42:51

So I actually, you know I've never decorated my sale but I did actually put up shelving in my sale once and when the SRTs came by to do their mass shakedown, the dude that searched my sale was so mad. He was so mad I had, like I had a guy make picture frames out of those chip bags, so I had like pictures up in my sale in the corners, on shelves and stuff. This dude was so mad. I had a little like coat hooks that the guy made out of popsicle sticks and everything. He had sanded them. They were smooth. It was great.

Remie: 43:32

You come to my sale, you like what the fuck is going on here. I had like blue towels that were on the floors, rugs and everything. But this dude was so mad that he tried to rip the shelves and the hooks off the wall and he couldn't. So he went and got a baton and smashed them off the wall and it took chunks out of the concrete wall Because I used dentric cream to put it on the wall and when that stuff dries it's like concrete, it's like concrete. So when he like bashed it off the wall, I'm talking like an inch deep, you know, inch and a half deep into the wall, chunks of concrete coming off and then the end, the shelf and the hook was still stuck to the concrete. And let's do. They end up coming in the middle of the night.

Remie: 44:29

Man, one of the captains come and he hands me this thing and it's a pay slip. So we used to have to fill out pay slips if we wanted to pay for anything off of our books, out of our account. And he's like you gotta pay for this damage to this wall. And I'm like fuck outta, here the CO's paying for that. Bro, I could have took it off. He didn't want me to take it off, he chose to go by his own way. But anyways, as far as the holidays, there's a guy man. I wish I remember his dude's name. He was an older black guy and he was in the mush faking. But everybody was in the mush faking at that time because they had just opened it up.

DJ: 45:16

Define that.

Remie: 45:17

So mush faking is sanctioned arts and crafts where you're allowed to buy supplies like popsicle sticks, glue, anything, paint, all that and you're allowed to have it in its own separate container. It doesn't have to be included in your regulated 2.4 box that you have to have all your property fit in or it's considered contraband. So this guy was in a mush faking and he really didn't like it. But the experience kind of opened his eyes to creativity and so he would take that cardboard backing from the notepads and he would like glue a few of them together until it was like real stiff. He would wrap the chip bag around it with the silver side up, and then he would buy Jolly Ranchers and he would melt down these Jolly Ranchers, each one, all the separate colors green, red, purple and he would build these crazy displays out of Jolly Ranchers Like he would roll them flat and cut them and then he would make roses, he would make houses.

Remie: 46:29

Dude, it was like a crazy display and then he would like, basically, while it was still kind of hot, it would stick to the silver surface, but not in a permanent way.

DJ: 46:41

Right, kind of like glass boat like what you're describing is like glass blow. Yes, exactly what it looked like.

Remie: 46:47

And he at first got like backlash from administration and they're like you can't do that. But once they saw the finished product, like he had permission, like they wouldn't let him send it out in the mail, but he was able to make it for people and get permission for them to take it out on their visits. So they couldn't take it in a visit room, they could give it to the CEO and like, hey, this is going to my family and they would take it out and sit it in the exit entry area. I love it. So they could pick it up on their way out.

DJ: 47:22

How cool.

Remie: 47:23

That was like the most creative thing I ever seen as far as holiday stuff, cause I mean, it didn't matter what holiday Valentine's Day, of course, you know you got the huge candy heart with flowers and all this other stuff that was amazing to me.

DJ: 47:40

Yeah, it sounds really cool, I don't I mean you say it all the time that some of the most creative, talented people that you know come from the incarcerated world.

Remie: 47:52

Yeah, can.

DJ: 47:53

I read this next one.

Remie: 47:54

Go for it, man. I got my shot. Y'all I better not miss. So this is by Khalique Shakur, from Texas. He says all I have left on the holidays is the title. He says in prison, holidays are about reflecting more than anything. We sit around and talk about the things we used to do, how they made us feel what we enjoyed the most.

Remie: 48:19

As a Muslim, I don't celebrate the holidays anymore, but I remember what it was like, opening presents and spending time with my mother. My fondest memory of an old plastic Christmas tree. She always was set up Every year. We screwed the long stick that looked like a mop handle into a base, then stuck the branches and the little holes. It took us hours to untangle the lights. Finally, we wrapped a huge piece of glitter-covered cotton around the base. It was supposed to be snow. A memory like this doesn't mean much to others, but it's my memory. It's all that I have left of the holidays. My mother is gone now. I'm going to go to the hospital. My mother is gone now and without her to celebrate with, things are not a celebration but merely an achievement.

DJ: 49:08

I love that one. My question to you is did folks get together and kind of reminisce about these exact kinds of things while you were incarcerated over the holidays? Did people like to come together and tell stories about things they used to do when they were home?

Remie: 49:28

Um, I don't know. I love saying I don't know when I don't know. Um, in my experience, it was never focused on the holiday. Prison is a place where people just tell stories, period.

DJ: 49:45

Right.

Remie: 49:46

Um, especially when it's about what they used to have or what they used to do on the streets. You know, um, it's kind of a uh uh saying that you can go to prison and totally reinvent yourself.

DJ: 49:57

Mm, hmm.

Remie: 49:58

If you wanted to be a doctor, you'd be like man, I was a doctor out there. Who's going to say you were, you know, um, most people will be like, oh, but I was out there in the streets, I was moving major weight and I had this girl and that girl and I was. I knew these celebrities. They tell all types of stories, you know, um, but, like it was said before, you know the holidays, at that time where people really try to come together for each other. So when you do have those few friends that you cook with and you go watch a movie with or you go hang out at you know a wreck, whatever, um, those do tend to be the more intimate stories about. You know, family and stuff like that Mm hmm.

Remie: 50:42

Um, guys talk about their kids, if they have them, you know, and um, yeah, though I mean, those would be the times where you would share stuff like this. I don't know if it's that personal depends on how close and how confident you are in a friend.

DJ: 50:57

I think about um volunteer relationships to um. You know, back when I was a teenager, I would go with a group to the Ohio women's reformatory um around the holidays and we would do visits with the women. They were, you know, tied to um, a church that I used to attend youth group at um. You know, back when I did those kinds of religious things but, um, I found that the women and I don't know if this is a gendered experience or not, but or a binary gendered experience I should say but when I would do those kinds of visits, the women really liked to talk about the things they used to do. Particularly, they talked a lot about the food that they would cook. Or I go back to Heather's story at the beginning, where they were talking about the noodles of four generations. They talked a lot about those things.

Remie: 52:03

Being the person that keeps everybody together.

DJ: 52:05

Yeah, we just and we didn't know those women. I couldn't tell you any of their names. They didn't know me right? I was a teenager on a volunteer trip that came to do a one-day thing, but I felt like the stories they were willing to share were really, really intimate, and I wonder if it's because we went home at the end of the day, right, like they didn't have to worry about their personal safety with us.

Remie: 52:29

That's a big part of it.

DJ: 52:31

But I also think that there was a sense of relief that they could talk about that with somebody, yeah, and share that with right. Because even if it was sad to talk about and reminisce about, they could trust that they were sharing that with somebody right, like they could just remember it and not have to be concerned about their safety.

Remie: 52:53

Yeah, I think that's pretty much right on spot. You spend so much time in prison not wanting people to get to know you genuinely, like you have to keep up all those guards, and then you have a volunteer who comes in. Really, that's the time where not only are you reliving it for yourself because, like they said, you're always trying to reminisce and relive those but also, when it's a volunteer, it's not staff, it's not inmate, this is a totally neutral party. You just want them to get to know you.

DJ: 53:35

As a person. Yeah, it's just a person. Those women loved to talk about their kids. Yeah, let me tell you.

Remie: 53:42

It's like when you're in prison, the last thing you want to do because you know, I don't know. I got to that point where I stopped looking at people's crimes, but there are actual a lot of I don't know, there's more. It'll shock you how many people are in there for child related crimes and if you don't know all the details of it, you just see that based. You know child related crime status. You know I'm not telling these motherfuckers about my kids, I'm showing them pictures of my kids Right.

Remie: 54:11

So, now that you have this opportunity, you're like oh man, let me tell you about my son, let me tell you about my daughter when she's just some 15 year old.

DJ: 54:16

Let me tell you about this memory that I have of them.

Remie: 54:19

Let me tell you about me and who I used to be and what I used to do, because you don't get to talk to people like that, right?

DJ: 54:26

You don't get to be vulnerable.

Remie: 54:27

Let me tell you about setting up the tree with my mother. Yeah, and for those who don't know.

DJ: 54:32

I was going to say, for those who don't know, we live in front of a train track, so normally we pause it, but we were in the middle of a good discussion, so we're just going to let it ride. Let's let it ride.

Remie: 54:41

This is real life. Sing it.

DJ: 54:45

All I want to do round round salad.

Remie: 54:50

But anyway, that's the. That's the moment. You know the volunteer, the person who is going to listen, and probably just because they're a nice person, they're not going to interrupt you, they're not going to count her with their own story. They're going to hear you out and then you don't have to worry about them using it against you. They're going to leave and they might even reach out again.

DJ: 55:14

Can I make this about me for a second?

Remie: 55:16

It's always about you, come on.

DJ: 55:21

I mean, I think this happened to everybody on our trip, but you know me and you know that the tears flowed. What.

Remie: 55:31

Oh, that's not what you're going to say.

DJ: 55:32

I was going to say that I think sometimes with people I don't know, they still share really personal things with me. Oh yeah.

Remie: 55:43

And that I mean the first one was valid too. I'm sure you cried.

DJ: 55:46

I didn't even cry, at least one.

Remie: 55:49

But yes, people out of nowhere in very awkward situations that are not fit for the situation at hand will just come up and talk to Debbie, even if we're together. Yeah, we were at a truck stop gas station one time grabbing snacks for the road and I look over and there's just some dude telling her about his daughter and all this other stuff not just like basic stuff.

DJ: 56:17

He was going into the long story she couldn't decide on her colleges and her art scholarship and he was having a really hard time guiding her through that. That happens to me all the time. I tried to hang back.

Remie: 56:30

I tried to just let it pass because I thought it was going to be a little casual thing. But dude kept going. I eventually walked up like hey, bud, I need my wife. Thanks, you have a nice day. God bless and.

DJ: 56:41

I didn't even it started because I was pulling out the juice out of the drink section and he was like my daughter likes that juice and I said yeah, it's good. And then he went into like that happens to me a lot.

Remie: 56:54

He leaned in, yeah.

DJ: 56:56

He was an older gen. He was so cute, though he was so cute.

Remie: 56:59

Yeah, but you know I was standing there and I'm not the most patient person on the road trip and I'm like bro, it's been five minutes. I don't look at every snack over here and talk to myself out of getting it, and now I look up again and he's still leaning in.

DJ: 57:20

That happens to me a lot. You've been with me a lot and so I mean I don't want to say that like these women shared stuff with me that they don't share with other people. That's not my point, but I do think there is an innocence to a teenager who's there as a part of a volunteer group, right, like you can just kind of verbal vomit, say the things you need to say, and then you can go back to you know, navigating the stressful environment of being incarcerated during the holiday, but at least you got to get it out. Do you want to read the next one, or do you want me to read the next one?

Remie: 57:53

Oh, let's see what's going on. Oh, that's a lot of words. A Gwendolyn burden green from the great state of Virginia? All right, I'll take a shot at it.

DJ: 58:05

All right, all right, you got it baby.

Remie: 58:08

It's titled what my Kids Chairs the Most.

DJ: 58:10

Oh, that's a great segue. We were just talking about the kids, mm-hmm.

Remie: 58:14

Little crumb snatchers. The holidays are hard for me, as I'm sure they are for many, so I decided to ask my children what their favorite part of the holidays were when they were young. My son, quan, held us up to three and, being the man he is, simply said I just enjoy the time we spent together as family. My oldest daughter, joy, loved the decorating, hanging up the stockings and putting ornaments on the tree. I asked her how come no one had mentioned the gingerbread houses, and she said there was too much teamwork involved. He would have preferred doing everything on her own, which made me laugh until I had tears in my eyes. As for my youngest, my daughter Natesa, she too loved the decorations and appreciated how.

Remie: 59:03

I ventured to the art section of Walmart and chose two of every ornament they had, so that my ex-husband and I were both able to participate in the festivities At home. We would all gather around the table, paint them, let them dry, then add string or hooks so we could hang them on the tree. After we were done with the decorations, we would all sit and watch movies. Our favorites were the Polar Express, a Christmas Story, national Lampoon's Christmas Vacation and Scrooge Sounds familiar. Those sound very familiar Natesa and I have tried to keep the movie tradition going while I've been inside. I include my granddaughter, jalen, in this tradition too, telling her the names of each movie we have watched so far and the ones we still hope to see. Of all the years that I have been away, this year seems to be one of the toughest, but I hope that by sharing my family story I can put a smile on the face of someone who may be struggling. Happy holidays all from mine to yours, candelyn Burton Green, from the awesome state of Virginia.

DJ: 1:00:17

I love this because I hope too that by sharing these stories of individuals who are currently incarcerated that we can A amplify their voices. But I love that we're sharing their family traditions too. I think that her hope is spot on that by sharing these things maybe we can bring not awareness but just solidarity, community unity, all of those things around these experiences. I like that she's trying to bring some normalcy to her time inside, like hey, we're watching holiday movies too. That came up in an article I read, and you can probably speak better about this than I, of course, can. But how the day room was showing Christmas movies pretty much all year round in December. It brought a lot of community to people. They didn't have to go and tell their personal stories, they could just go watch a movie together. So nobody had to talk about the vulnerability of their own experience at the holidays. They could just go laugh at Christmas vacation and go on about their business.

Remie: 1:01:29

Yeah, I think it was great that in the holiday season even if the day room actually a lot of times it was both Like the day when we'll be showing a movie, and then the chapel would always have some classic holiday movies and they would show them. So you go over to the chapel, they would have like popcorn machine and stuff. It was real uncommon but like the what was her name? The girl, the first girl she said like yeah, they'll dim the lights, they got all the confy seats with the cushions and stuff out popcorn and you go in there and grab a couple of your friends like yo, I'm about to head over to the chapel and they will let you bring your own food too, within reason, like snack food. So there is a. There is the most unhealthy drink ever that is very popular in prison and in Ohio we call it a foxy, and so we would. You know, we call it shaking up. We shake up a couple of foxy's, you know. Grab the bag she bangs and go over there, eat popcorn and chips and stuff.

DJ: 1:02:44

I was going to say she bangs or chips. For those who don't know, I had to. I had to look for the. I got you those.

Remie: 1:02:50

I had to look for those in your in your time, Very, very seasoned chips, strong chips. We call them the season packing prison.

DJ: 1:02:57

Man, I hate one of those and I was like this is too much.

Remie: 1:03:00

Like if you, if you try to eat a whole bag of them, your tongue will literally go numb. I promise you.

DJ: 1:03:06

I like that there was like a tradition, though, like you're saying of like this is. You know, this isn't the normal time of year. Let's go. Let's go do these things together. Um, I think that was a really great story. You want to do the next. You want me to do the next one?

Remie: 1:03:23

Uh, no, no, you got this.

DJ: 1:03:25

All right.

Remie: 1:03:25

I'll do the one after that.

DJ: 1:03:26

Okay, the incarcerated holiday spirit. This comes from a um from Antoine Davis in Washington state, and this one in particular is an excerpt from a longer essay, and so we will link that longer essay in our show notes. As an incarcerated individual, my holidays in prison are obviously nothing like they were at home, but many of us try to foster a holiday spirit in the prison environment. Some guys will bring out their 15 inch televisions and keyboards to watch football and play music in the day room. Others will cook microwave dinners together and crack jokes about turning top ramen into a meal grandma used to make from home. It's funny, but we only laugh to keep from crying.

Remie: 1:04:09

For show.

DJ: 1:04:10

You had some creative food you would make. We just relaunched, um you know, the episode with Joe for Thanksgiving where you all talked about how you would commandeer all the microwaves to to make.

Remie: 1:04:24

It's actually. It's weird looking back on time in prison as a good memory. It's weird.

DJ: 1:04:31

I don't think so. I mean you in particular, and I can only I mean I can't really speak to your experience either, but you spent 10 years in prison. Most of your adult, all of your adulthood, was incarcerated. Um, you spent I'm.

Remie: 1:04:49

At the time it was a third of my life.

DJ: 1:04:52

Right. And I mean now, on the other end of it, it's still not. You still haven't hit even with it, right, like your five years out of the 10 years that you served. So, um, I think you can look back on it and say good things happened. I mean, it would be silly to say it was all bad right.

Remie: 1:05:13

No, you're right.

DJ: 1:05:14

I mean, you formed lifelong friendships in there, some of whom get to be a part of this podcast, which I think is really great.

Remie: 1:05:23

For sure, for sure.

DJ: 1:05:25

What was your favorite holiday meal that you made? I know you didn't really celebrate the holidays, but I also know that you were an incredible prison cook prison chef. I'm an incredible cook period. I was gonna follow up with that.

Remie: 1:05:40

You didn't let me finish. I'm actually not. I'm not to be honest. No, he is, he is. I've burned quite a few pizzas that were just like the frozen pop in the oven kind.

DJ: 1:05:50

Yeah, but that's cause you forget a little bit.

Remie: 1:05:53

I've burned probably 60% of them.

DJ: 1:05:56

But like to make a meal. You're really great at that. Frozen pizza is not your thing, which I think is funny, because when I try a new recipe I'm like, don't worry, if it doesn't work out, there's always a frozen pizza we can throw in.

Remie: 1:06:12

But with you it's like it's like I'll make the pizza. I got it. I got it, you can make. I'm the one who like don't worry, baby, I got it.

DJ: 1:06:21

You can make like a meal from scratch out of like any ingredients, but the frozen pizza is not your forte. Too many minutes on that timer to care about.

Remie: 1:06:30

So this is off subject, but it's weird that anytime I'm cooking from scratch just random, I got these ingredients I can make something. It's a good experience. Anytime I have to follow a recipe. Yeah, you don't like that. It's not going well.

DJ: 1:06:49

You get stressed out at recipes. I'm like, babe, I sent you the recipe for dinner tonight and you're just like do?

Remie: 1:06:54

I have to make this. I looked at the picture and said I can make that.

DJ: 1:06:59

So going back to Antoine's story here about folks bringing out their televisions and keyboards, cooking top ramen in the microwave and saying it's just like grandma's tell me about a really good holiday dinner. You threw together. You and Joe threw together. You and Jeremy threw together.

Remie: 1:07:17

Like tell me a good experience. There were a lot actually. You know, I would say after year, let's see, definitely after year six and seven. So, like the last three years, four years were like great for holiday meals. I mean, there was a time where, like me and Joe, who else? There was a guy named Zach we hung out with Mostly guys I played magic with during this time. But we were like, basically, the child hall is trying to make a better meal and it may or may not be going well, but we're just gonna do our own, just classic Thanksgiving meal. And so we planned well in advance and we got food boxes months prior and we were like, hey, man, make sure you get the box of Marie calendar stuffing and I'm gonna get just everything I'm gonna get a candy.

DJ: 1:08:29

I love how you split the boxes Like, okay, I'm gonna get this.

Remie: 1:08:32

I'm gonna get the green beans.

DJ: 1:08:34

Well, because everybody has a specific amount of room in their box, so you can't get it all.

Remie: 1:08:38

Yeah, if I had to get the whole meal in my box, I'd be below my whole box and y'all just benefiting.

DJ: 1:08:44

Right, I like that. Everybody's gonna get a thing, okay, keep going.

Remie: 1:08:49

And so that's what we did, like you got the box of mashed potatoes, I got the box of stuffing, we both got a couple of cans of vegetables, corn, green beans, whatever and we actually had like a trial and error type of situation, because we thought we were gonna bring the turkey back from the meal serving in the shawl hall and we were gonna just like jazz it up. But it was so horrible that we couldn't jazz it up. It was so spongy and we tried to like pull the oil on and put it in the microwave to get it to crisp and it just dehydrated and turned into like this crusty sponge thing and we were like, yeah, we gotta switch it up. So of course, we had to do what we had on hand. Now.

Remie: 1:09:41

We got a couple of summer sausages and sliced them long ways and put them in a bowl through some barbecue sauce and honey, you know, whatever, some spices to jazz it up, and it was pretty cool how it turned out. Man, it was really nice to be like such a simple meal. And then, of course, you know, if you listen to that episode, you also hear me and Joe talk about when we made lasagna and when we made the stuffed spaghetti squash, like that was on point. That was actually in the summer, so that wasn't a holiday thing, the spaghetti squash, but it was totally good. The lasagna was a holiday meal.

DJ: 1:10:23

I read you know, in preparation for this episode, I was reading a lot of articles about people's holiday experiences, because I wanted to make sure I understood and I wasn't, you know, out of pocket. So Out of pocket, so similar to your story about the sausages, is what prompted it for me Like people wanted to give away, and so this gentleman was writing about the time that he stocked up one sausages and then he cooked them on his hot. He would cut them long ways and cook them on his Skillet Hot pot Hot pot, hot pot, hot pot.

DJ: 1:10:58

No what.

Remie: 1:11:00

That's what we had hot pots. This is a little to sing like a skillet. Other people do have a.

DJ: 1:11:05

Hot.

Remie: 1:11:07

Hot plates.

DJ: 1:11:07

Hot plates. That's it. I was gonna get that yeah.

Remie: 1:11:11

I pop AirPods.

DJ: 1:11:13

AirPods, ipads iPad, ipods no Hot plates, and so he was talking about how he would grill his sausages on hot plates and then toast his bread, his buns and stuff, and then he would put pickles on there and he would make his own hot sauce out of all of these different hot sauces that he had saved throughout the year. So he'd make his own hot sauce to put over top and that's what he would serve. He served it to the people in his block on Christmas. That was his like way of giving back was grilling these sausages for everybody, one at a time on his hot plate, and I just thought that was a really cool piece of community and I think that echoes what Antoine's talking about here.

Remie: 1:11:58

I'm sorry, I just zoned out thinking about prison food and it made me have a craving.

DJ: 1:12:08

For a break.

Remie: 1:12:09

No, we used to make these things called door stoppers and it's like a four foot long burrito and then you cut it up into sections and you share it with people.

DJ: 1:12:26

Why wouldn't that be called a show stopper?

Remie: 1:12:29

Because it was. It looks like the thing you do to put down at the door.

DJ: 1:12:35

That's less appealing. A dust stopper. I would like to call it a show stopper because it's a giant sandwich.

Remie: 1:12:40

It's a burrito.

DJ: 1:12:41

Can we write to somebody and ask to?

Remie: 1:12:43

No, okay, it is what it is.

DJ: 1:12:47

All right, this next one's called a ghost of Christmas past. You want to read this one? All right, let me see what we got here and then I'll do the last one.

Remie: 1:12:54

A ghost of Christmas past, written by Christian Ross of Arizona. This time of year we cry tears of longing and we do it in the shower so no one hears. Heartfelt emails and phone calls are the only way we can attend family get togethers. Hey, pass me the Uncle Tone. I only talk to him once a year. Holidays don't exist to me anymore and I prefer to act like it's just another day. I have to reintegrate them when I return. Until then, they're just a dreamed up memory, slowly losing details the years pass. I choose to block it out and save myself the torture of knowing I will be missed for yet another holiday. At least I exist to everyone here with me behind bricks, to those who love me at home, I'm a ghost of Christmas past.

DJ: 1:13:43

Not such a sad line.

Remie: 1:13:45

That is sad.

DJ: 1:13:47

It's well written.

Remie: 1:13:48

It is well written.

DJ: 1:13:51

That's a sad line. I'm sure that a lot of people feel that way. I mean you talked about it at the beginning this like hey pass the phone around type of mentality, but you also talked a lot about I just wanna sleep through it. I just wanna stick with routine. I don't wanna know that this is Christmas. I want to continue to move towards this goal of going home.

Remie: 1:14:17

Yeah, I would rather get together with the guys in there, watch the Christmas program and watch football, watch whatever as a community, or to just not and just go along my routine. Another thing that I didn't say was I mentioned like I got new nephews that I had never met and stuff. But another hard part is calling home and they're passing the phone around and there are people that aren't there anymore. Your grandmother died, your mother, father, sister, brother, anybody. I lost a lot of people while I was locked up and it was still less than many people that I knew. I lost my grandmother while I was in there, my dad's mom, I lost my niece, I lost my cousin, so it was kind of hard to continue to call home and people were disappearing like that.

Remie: 1:15:20

And one thing I was very, very grateful for was my mom's mom. I was able to come home and hearing about all of the ailments that she had leading up to my release, it was just one big hope. Like man, I hope I make it home. And she would even say, which was even more sad, like I'm just waiting for you to come home. And that's horrible, man. That's so hard to hear, but she died a year after I got home. I was able to make it home and see her and everything. She didn't get to see any of my success. She didn't get to see the birth of my child or me getting married, but she saw me come home.

DJ: 1:16:01

That's what she wanted to see. That's what she wanted. That's all she needed. The other piece of Christians thing that stands out to me is a perspective we have not talked about yet in this episode, and I think it's really important, and so I'd like for you to talk a little bit about it, if you can is the perspective of the family. And so Christians last line of to those who love me at home, I'm a ghost of Christmas past. Can you talk at all about the experiences? I know your family didn't really do the holidays but, like you, had a significant other for several of the years you were incarcerated. What was that experience like on the other end of things, to not have your loved one home at the holidays?

Remie: 1:16:45

Well, she actually explained it to me very openly that eventually, of course, we won our separate ways and it was very civil. I wasn't mad because I had to understand what it was like from the other side. And she told me, like she goes to all these events with people, that she went to high school with people, that she went to college with family and all this stuff and they're always like where's he at. And she was like at this point I'm kind of tired of making excuses, I'm tired of having to explain. So she kind of stopped going for a while and eventually it went from she stopped going to them to she stopped coming to visit me because it was like I'm tired of going through the intake process, metal detectors, getting frisked, getting this and like it really did weigh on her just constantly having me away. She would celebrate and she would put up decorations for me and stuff like we do with Christmas bulbs and all that stuff. She would do that put up decorations with my name, one of my pictures and all that stuff.

Remie: 1:18:02

That's sad when you have your own place and it's just you in it, but you're trying to decorate it as if someone else is there when they're not. And that is one of those things that I had to understand back then is like that's a thing that breeds a lot of resentment, and it doesn't have to be a romantic relationship for that resentment to brew and breed. Your parents could experience that resentment. Your siblings could experience that resentment, your kids. I know plenty of guys who were struggling to keep their relationship with their kids as their kids turn into teenagers. That's already a tough enough age. It's hard when you're calling home and you're like my niece, my oldest niece, is now going to college. She's going to OSU.

Remie: 1:19:00

When I was locked up, man, she would ask me like when are you coming home? My sister told her I was at school which is why I really don't like lying to kids and she was like I see your school bus pass all the time, but you never get off. I don't know. I was in the middle of the visit room. I was ready to cry like get her off my lap, take her, take. You know. She was probably like I don't know, maybe four. I was like, oh man, this is horrible. But you know it's like I mean. Luckily she didn't grow up to hold any of that absence against me and you know I would try my best to send stuff home. You know I would make T-shirts, I would draw stuff for you know my niece and nephews draw stuff for my mom, my parents, some of it, like I think my mom still has the majority of stuff. I still have some of it. We got that painting that I had made, portrait of me and my mother you know it's hard man.

Remie: 1:20:06

And the part that really kind of resonated with me was the part where he said there are just a dreamed up memory, slowly losing details as the years pass.

DJ: 1:20:16

Right.

Remie: 1:20:18

I mean, you got to remember that most of the time you don't talk about this stuff out loud Stuff, you just think about Right. As the years go on you slowly start to lose those details. You know, I mean, even now I was like damn, I forgot about that.

Remie: 1:20:34

You know, putting all those cards and decorations around the sale Same thing as on the other end you know, at home when you had those little traditions that you used to do with, you know, your mom or your dad or your kids. After a while your kids grow up, it stops being so important to them sometimes, so you stop thinking about it as much and next thing you know you're like yeah, I forgot, we used to do that together.

DJ: 1:21:00

Right, that's why I think, is it Gwendolyn.

Remie: 1:21:03

Mm-hmm.

DJ: 1:21:04

Is that the name Genevieve? No, what was the name?

Remie: 1:21:06

Gwendolyn.

DJ: 1:21:06

Okay. I think that that one's really, really good, because she talks about how she's keeping that alive even while she's incarcerated. Like these are the things we used to do when I was there. These are the things we're going to continue to do even though I'm not there, and we're going to pass it down to the next generation too. We have one more. This one is called the Holiday Hustle. This comes to us from Chad Weinstein in Arizona. The holidays are a time of giving and receiving.

DJ: 1:21:34

I hardly ever receive money from my family, so, as a young entrepreneur, I have to adapt and work to hard to ensure I can take care of my needs and also have some luxuries. I draw cards, portraits and other pieces of artwork that I sell. I work in pencil on paper. Each piece takes me between six and 20 hours. I usually sell a lot of cards at Christmas time, and with some of the money I make I do things for other people who have less than me, hoping to bring a smile to their faces. I give someone a warm cup of coffee, maybe a Danish, just something to let them know they are not alone in the struggle. You did a lot of that. You do a lot of that still. I think about the-.

Remie: 1:22:16

I did a little of it the holiday you were home.

DJ: 1:22:18

The Thanksgiving you were home and bought a bunch of styrofoam boxes from like GFS and stuff to give away to homeless people or unhoused, because you were like we're not gonna keep these leftovers, like there are people that need these. So he drove around and passed them out. You did that while you were incarcerated too.

Remie: 1:22:40

Yeah, Actually, when I first went to prison, I was fortunate enough to have some money on my books. I actually had a few thousand on my books. It I didn't understand yet like how to do time long time so, and I didn't like people. I'm not a people person really, especially not in that type of environment, and so I was in a Medium security, not a medium. I was in a close security prison which is level three, one step away from max, and so I would buy everything to cook by myself.

Remie: 1:23:24

People like, oh man, let me get that meal. I don't cook with people, bro. I'm we talking about like buying the big party size bags of chips and you know Like piecing it out. So I'm gonna make this one meal. It'd be all together like a $20 meal if I broke that up with somebody else. I could have like a $5 meal and eat the same meal. But I'm like, no, I don't even know nobody else. I make this whole big-ass meal, eat my feel of it and then just give it to somebody like, well, you want this here, take it and I do the same thing for dinner, or I'll do the same thing tomorrow.

Remie: 1:24:01

And my first Like my first like six months. I remember going to the commissary and, yeah, I never looked at the prices of things. I mean, give me four of those, give me a couple of them, whatever you know. And I remember looking at my receipt and I was like, hey, what's this number at the bottom? And it was like, oh, that should remain in balance. I was like, fuck out of here. I Was broke man. I had like 40 bucks left. I was like, oh my god, I was. I was spending like a hundred dollars a week on the phone. I was like, oh my god, I Can't. I'm sorry I can't call, I can't call the boy man. But I mean, even though it was kind of like benevolence, you know, charity, whatever you want to call it, I mean it was kind of misguided at the time. You know I was still doing it back then. Later on it was much more pure of heart and intent.

DJ: 1:25:09

You found the holidays behind it a little bit.

DJ: 1:25:14

No, I think that's great. Well, I hope that folks have enjoyed this. Again, these reflections are coming to you from the prison journalism project. This is an independent journalism project of incarcerated individuals, so this article was put together by the PJP editors and you know, I think, that there's a lot here that we can take away. There's a lot that we can reflect on and remember that, while we are going through our holiday season, whatever that looks like for us and our family that there are still folks that are incarcerated that are experiencing the same seasons that we are, but they're experiencing it Really differently. And it's not to say that we're supposed to celebrate differently, but it's just to remember and be aware, I think, that the holiday season does not look the same for all of us.

Remie: 1:26:15

There are many more People out there who are less fortunate, and it's not always from a money aspect, you know, poor, homeless, anything like that, but Situation.

DJ: 1:26:28

Yep, and so we hope you've enjoyed this extra long episode about the holiday season and, regardless of what you do and do not celebrate at this time of year, we are wishing you well, we are wishing you safety, we are wishing you happiness.

Remie: 1:26:44

And good health and good health and good drink, preferably me.

DJ: 1:26:49

You just gonna keep plugging that we're not sponsored or anything.

Remie: 1:26:53

I mean, we can't drink enough to be goodness. I drink enough to be there we got.

DJ: 1:27:01

let's clarify please.

Remie: 1:27:02

All right, it's all right. I guess that is the end, folks. Thank you again for listening. Happy holidays to all. As DJ said, we wish you good health, we wish you back next week, and I guess that's it, man, we're out.

DJ: 1:27:21

Bye. The lockdown to legacy podcast is proud to be a part of the bus sprout podcast community network. Lockdown to legacy is recorded at Kohatch in their lovely audiophile room. Thanks for your scholarship. Audio engineering is done by our very own remy Jones. You can reach us with any feedback, questions, comments or share the love by emailing stories at lockdown, the number two Legacy comm, stories at lockdown to legacy comm. You can reach out there too for a free sticker, and you can find us on Instagram and Twitter with the handle at lockdown to legacy and on Facebook at the lockdown to legacy podcast. Thanks for listening, oh.