Tackling Injustice: Danger in Youth Prisons

In this episode we address the bitter-sweet complexities of the holiday season. We share personal stories that reveal the often unseen struggles some people grapple with during this festive period, underscoring the urgent need for empathy, inclusivity and unyielding kindness. From a heartwarming narrative about our grandparents' open-door holiday tradition to the chilling news of an active shooter incident at a local hospital, we hope to inspire a deeper understanding of the world around us.

As we guide you through the labyrinth of Ohio's juvenile detention centers, known as DYS, we reveal the grim realities concealed within its walls. From an unsettling case of a paralyzed 15-year-old inmate to the disturbing lack of training for guards, we expose the critical issues plaguing these institutions. We aim to spark conversations about alternative sentencing, increased support for incarcerated youth, and the pressing need for resource allocation. Join us on this journey as we transform lockdowns into legacies.

The articles used in today's episode are as follows:
https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/2023/11/11/ohio-teen-damarion-allen-paralyzed-juvenile-jail-fight/70758080007/

https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/2023/11/11/ohios-youth-prison-detention-centers-struggle-with-injuries-neglect/70410221007/

Transcript

Remie: 0:19

Welcome to Lockdown the Legacy stories from the inside out. I'm your host, remy Jones.

DJ: 0:25

And I'm co-host Debbie Jones. We are a husband and wife team here to bring you the real life stories, experiences and questions around the American criminal justice system. We do advise discretion with this podcast. I think we should put that out there first and foremost. Yes, we are going to talk about experiences that happen inside the prison system, outside of prison systems. We will use language that might be offensive, but we intend to keep it real. And if that's not for you, we totally understand, but please do what's best for your listening ears.

Remie: 0:56

Oh, we're about to keep it real, son. Our goal of this podcast is to share the inside realities of the American prison and criminal justice system, from pre-charges all the way to post-release, from the voices of those who've experienced it firsthand, including me.

DJ: 1:12

That's right, we're going to get into it.

Remie: 1:31

Hello everybody, and welcome back to another episode of Lockdown to Legacy. I'm your host, remy Jones, and today I am joined by the beautiful, the talented, the all-inspiring and just amazing person my wife, my partner in crime. I don't do crime anymore, but anyway the Debbie Jones DJ.

DJ: 1:56

Thank you for the warm introduction. Glad to be here.

Remie: 2:00

I try no pat me on the back or anything. I accept favors, though If you owe me one, I'll do this every time.

DJ: 2:08

Do I owe you one?

Remie: 2:10

I mean okay, whatever. So anyway, welcome back, glad to be here for another episode Today. I just wanted to shout out that the crew shout out, columbus crew won the MLS Cup.

DJ: 2:27

Yes, and it is like our Super Bowl.

Remie: 2:32

It is.

DJ: 2:32

The best way to describe it.

Remie: 2:34

We are soccer fans, so if anybody is not a soccer fan, keep that to yourself. We will find over this. We're also, you know, football fans or whatever else, but we were able to be in the stadium and witness history as Columbus crew beat LAFC for the MLS Cup. This would be our third win out of the five times we've been, I believe. So that's that's a pretty good record. Right, it was amazing, man, it was amazing. It was like super hyped. At first we thought it was going to be a dud, because we got there early and like the seats didn't feel to capacity until like maybe 20 minutes before the game, which we actually showed up, like what? Two, three hours early. They're very early.

DJ: 3:29

We were nervous about the parking and they just had really cool stuff going on. Like you could get your picture with the cup replica and, yeah, we just wanted to be there early, but even getting tickets was really challenging, so we were fortunate to be there. We felt really lucky to be there.

Remie: 3:49

You want to tell them about the experience of getting the tickets.

DJ: 3:53

I don't know, somebody who makes a lot more money than I've ever made decided to make a sponsor code. So basically season ticket holders, which we were we are not season ticket holders for 2024. Talk about that in a bit but got a special code to log in early to buy tickets. But sponsors could go in before that, several hours before that. But like our code to get in was like six capital G lower KZL12. Like it was really complicated. The sponsors code was sponsor 23.

DJ: 4:36

So of course that got leaked and a bunch of people went in and bought tickets unauthorized. So there were no seats by the time season ticket holders could log in to even purchase them. I was in the queue for about five hours trying to find any tickets. So the crew worked really hard overnight with ticket master. They got back all of the unauthorized tickets and re-released the seats, which was amazing. I mean I have to give them shout out and kudos. I can't imagine how many angry emails and phone calls they got in that time. But they got it all back. We were able to buy them the next day and we got to go, which was mostly a great experience. I mean it was fantastic.

Remie: 5:21

But I mean, yeah, I like to back up for a second and say that when we talk about all these unauthorized ticket buyers who were just buying them up, I mean they were ticket scalpers, you know. Basically they bought all of the tickets for I don't know 150 bucks each and they were reselling them for three to eight. What was it? An 800-some-dollar that we sold.

DJ: 5:46

Oh no, they were thousands by the time they were done.

Remie: 5:50

Well, we almost bought some resale tickets for about 850 bucks, luckily. I was like, nah, we'll just see what happens, we might have to miss this one. But the next day we woke up and there were some good news in the email, so that was cool. So, yeah, I'm sure a lot of those people were mad that they missed out on their 900% profit. But I'm going to keep it PG and not say what I want to say about them and just say their loss.

DJ: 6:27

Despite the amazing experience, we did not renew our season tickets, and it's much more to do with schedule than anything else. All of the crew games happen on Saturday evenings and my lovely, talented, handsome, amazing husband works every Saturday.

Remie: 6:43

I just want to say you left some stuff out, but we'll give the bridge version. Yeah, I work Saturdays and Sundays Some.

DJ: 6:52

Fridays.

Remie: 6:56

I actually said it on the podcast, where I ended up starting a new job. And I ended up starting that new job right after we purchased last season's tickets. We had a partial season pass and pretty much I got to go to two games and then I just gave my ticket away to other people. There were games that Debbie didn't want to go by herself, so we literally just gifted the tickets to other people or she took some money else One time I took some money else For us to have paid that much money.

DJ: 7:36

We had a full season this year.

Remie: 7:38

Oh, we did, I'm sorry. We had a full season, we had a partial plan the year before so yeah, for us to have a full season and I probably went to four, three, something like that it was like we should probably reevaluate, but luckily that we had those, because it gave us priority to get tickets for the MLS Cup and for us to see our team go all the way.

DJ: 8:04

Yeah, I don't regret having the season tickets. I think they were awesome. I also really liked that we got to gift them to people Brought a lot of fans into the soccer fold.

Remie: 8:14

We actually converted some people into being crew fans or soccer fans in general.

DJ: 8:19

I got to take Ruby this year, who is our oldest daughter, which was really cool. She is now a diehard crew fan. Was very depressed that we were not taking her to the Cup game Another year maybe won't be our last time in the only thing about the game I did not like.

Remie: 8:42

Yeah, I know what you're gonna say here.

DJ: 8:44

Was when the other team scored their goal, not the tie angle, not the winning goal, their only goal.

Remie: 8:52

Yeah, so we actually led the game to to zero at the half and then in the second half, the LaFC, the other team, scored one goal and their fans, who had the whole, almost the whole upper deck right above us Behind the goal, on the, you know, they went crazy. I can't even say they went crazy, because they were going crazy the whole entire game. They never stopped beating their drum, they never stopped yelling, they never stopped standing.

DJ: 9:25

That's the guy to give.

Remie: 9:27

It was high there spirit and I even caught myself dancing to their drum beat a few times I was like wait, wait, wait, wait wait, wait.

DJ: 9:34

Well, mess with them like that.

Remie: 9:37

But then they scored and they were still down, they were still losing, but they went crazy, berserk, and they threw all of their beer, all of their beer, all of their drinks Over the edge and it all landed on us who were sitting in the lower level.

DJ: 9:54

It was horrible there were. I mean, I Get it, I get that you're running on adrenaline in this emotional high, but like To throw alcohol on children. There were a lot of kids in our section like the row in front of us had.

Remie: 10:11

There was a lady with a infant, an infant.

DJ: 10:15

A child got hurt because a bottle got thrown. I saw that article later that somebody actually, like a kid, actually got hurt because of that. So it's like you could be the I don't know. You told me like LA is Kind of notorious for being the bad boys, like the you know in general yeah yeah, the fans like that, but like it's too much.

DJ: 10:42

That's too much, and I found further confirmation from other soccer clubs. They were like, yeah, our stadium hates it when LA comes to town because of the amount of things we have to clean up. They're just downright disrespectful, which is sad, because every LA fan we passed we said welcome to our city, we're really glad you're here, looking forward to the match, hope you have a good day, not a great day Like all those kind of fun things. And then for them to all throw their alcohol on us was. I Was not thrilled.

Remie: 11:10

I did not say goodbye to any of them when we left speaking of goodbyes, when they threw all their drinks on us, I mean they were up there screaming give them middle fingers, f you this and that. Yeah, and you know, justifiably so. People that were in the lower, lower level were like pointing guys out like that month over right there through the drink we're gonna get him after the game. Fight you all jump and they're like bring it on, and you, of course, they're like whatever F you.

Remie: 11:40

But after the game in that, just after the game I was expecting, like babe, let's get up out of your shit. I did the fan, but no, when we left out because you know we stayed to sing the anthems and all the stuff we watched uh, our players take pictures with their kids and with the Favorite part and then, when we finally leave, all the LAFC Fans are standing over by the concessions with police lined all the way in front of them and they're just sitting here.

DJ: 12:09

No, no, no, that wasn't us. Please don't hurt. It was a real quiet, real quiet crowd behind police control over there on the side. Yeah, I don't know, I was not. I was not thrilled at that because that is not typical soccer sportsmanship. That is not what we have seen from other teams. Not what we experienced when we went to DC, that's primarily type stuff.

Remie: 12:37

Like you go over to England and Germany. That's how they get down on the football.

DJ: 12:42

Yeah, I mean okay, but like that's not. I don't know, that's not our league. We went to the DC game this summer in our crew gear when DC United was playing Inter Miami. It was before Messi's arrival, but like we got compliments. Everybody was so kind to us. They were like we hear, your stadium is great and we've always been treated with respect, like they were fantastic. Wish, just well, thanked us for coming. That's, that's never been my experience with MLS soccer, and so I Was. Really I was really disappointed to see that, but other than that, when that final time expired, got real quiet in the upper deck.

DJ: 13:29

Got real quiet, got real quiet got real loud in the rest of the stadium, though, and it was just really really cool to be there.

Remie: 13:37

It was very cool. I'm glad I was there. I almost passed it up. I'm glad I was. I'm really happy for a city, I mean oh yeah. I know that Soccer is not really big in America, but you know Columbus doesn't have Any other professional teams as far as like major league sports. So oh wait, we asked, we got hockey, right.

DJ: 14:04

Yeah Columna, yeah the blue jackets.

Remie: 14:07

That's not major league. It's my new unit.

DJ: 14:09

I don't. I don't know you're gonna make some, so I wait no no minor league, I'm thinking the baseball, oh yeah clippers, the Columbus Clippers, they're like a minor league team.

Remie: 14:17

Yeah, I think. I think the Three jackets are big major league, so we got two major league teams, and then, of course, we got OSU, which is major league enough.

DJ: 14:26

Yeah, it's in its own thing. It's college, but it's also a really big deal.

Remie: 14:31

So I'm happy for our city.

DJ: 14:33

It was very cool. There were parades, there were rallies this week. They were all kind, I mean, like the whole city was black and yellow this week, which was really cool to see All the soccer fans come out of the woodwork and that kind of stuff. I also think it's worth noting that to get into the championships, we had to become the Eastern Champions and to do that we had to beat FC Cincinnati, which stands for football club, football club Cincinnati. Cincinnati has only been a team since 2019, so they're a very young team. We've been around since the original 1996, which makes us a very old and veteran team in the league. There's not a lot of those left, but Cincinnati was the number one team this year and we beat them, which isn't really the point.

DJ: 15:25

The point is that a while back they wanted to take the crew out of Columbus and put them in Houston, and Houston, texas and Columbus fought back. Ohio fought back and said no, we are a soccer state, you're not gonna take our team. And they saved with crew. That's what the hashtag save the crew was. It's still on everybody's shirts. It's still a very important part of the old stadium, the historic stadium, and now to have a brand new stadium to be the MLS champions, to have two major soccer teams in the state that Both made it to the Eastern Finals to play for the Cup shows that Ohio is a soccer state and I think that validation is worth even more than the Cup itself is To just put validity behind the sport itself. So that was a lot of soccer talk. We should talk about something else, huh.

Remie: 16:28

What are you on top of?

DJ: 16:30

Do? We got a lot to talk about. We've talked about holidays. I will say that I've encountered some stuff this week with holidays that I think is worth a good reminder for folks. As a person who's really big on trauma work and trauma-informed practice and self-awareness, please remember that this time of year is not merry and bright for everybody. A lot of people are struggling with grief and with loss and with pain this time of year and whether you celebrate any holiday or not, the holidays are in your face this time of year Christmas in particular. Like you cannot enter a store without hearing the music, you can't walk around without seeing the lights, like it is oppressive, a little bit, like it's it's overload and that's not just saying sensory wise, like sometimes when we're going through stuff, that that is amplified.

DJ: 17:28

I started a new job and I encountered the same woman In the bathroom one day and she was crying. Every time I went to the bathroom. She's in the bathroom crying this week and I was like I don't mean to pry. Obviously you came to the bathroom for a reason to cry. You're not like at your desk or wherever it is. You work within this building because I'm in a building with a lot of different agencies and she just broke down and said this is the second year without my husband and this is hitting me a lot harder than it did last year. I had a lot of support and I had a lot of people to get me through that last year and now all of that is gone.

DJ: 18:11

So I'm kind of going through it by myself and I mean I recognize that people kind of experience this time of year differently. But to like see somebody right next to me going through this so physically, it just was a really stark reminder that we don't always know what is going on in people's worlds and we cannot assume that everybody is celebrating the same things that we are. This was clearly not a celebration for her, even if it had been in the past. So I just that's been on my mind this week, it's been on my mind today. Just I don't know, handle with care I think is a really good tagline for the holidays is just wish everybody gentleness. Even if you love this time of year, it requires a lot of I don't know. It requires a lot of us. It requires a lot of travel and routine breaks and, I don't know, vulnerability hangover a little bit, which is a Brené Brown concept, but it's just a good reminder, I think, to provide some gentleness for folks.

DJ: 19:29

So, that's all. I didn't mean to go on a rant there. I just. That has stuck with me all week that every time I went in there she was in there and I'm just like do you need anything or are you all right? I don't mean to pry and then her just to be like verbal, here's what's going on with me. I was like, oh, that's a good reminder for self and others, like we can't just be like are you ready for the holidays? Did you get all your stuff bought? Are you really excited to have everybody over? That's not everybody's experience.

Remie: 19:58

Yeah, a lot of people do not have people to have over. Also, in recent news last week actually earlier this week Columbus had another active shooter incident at one of our local hospitals Children's Hospital, of all places which is sickening. So, once again, as we're in this holiday spirit and season and people are just trying to go about their day and have joy, there are people out there who I mean I'm sure this person is obviously going through some stuff, whether it's mental or emotional, and for some reason wanted to take that on on some innocent kids. So just keep in mind that while you're going through and trying to enjoy the season, still be vigilant, still be on guard for others, whether it's protecting yourself or just being gentle man what's the word I'm looking for?

DJ: 21:10

Gentle is a good word, empathetic, compassionate.

Remie: 21:13

Empathetic, compassionate, yes.

DJ: 21:16

Self-aware.

Remie: 21:18

And know that you can spread that holiday cheer or just joy in general beyond your friends and family.

DJ: 21:27

And without making assumptions, you can ask questions of folks without assuming that they're celebrating something or what they're celebrating or like we can shift the way we converse with folks, I think. I think we should have some more intentionality around that this time of year, and we seem to have less of it this time of year.

Remie: 21:50

I mean in general in our society we have gotten to that point where we are so connected through social media and stuff but at the same time we're so isolated due to the overload of media, especially like news media and that whole like shock and awe tactic of the media. So we tend to not be trusting of each other and there's so many people, like I said, who don't have a place to go. If you have a place for them to go, invite somebody over get to know somebody.

Remie: 22:25

Hey, you wanna come over grab a plate, say hi to some people we're kinda cool and then take off, you know. So I mean that's a little far, but I mean give it a try.

DJ: 22:37

That's my grandparents thing, I think I've told you that before.

Remie: 22:40

Yeah, I love it, I love it. They just adopt. How many stockings do they have?

DJ: 22:42

Oh man, I wish folks could just see the sunroom at my grandparents' house. They just adopt people. It doesn't matter if you're connected to their family or not, it doesn't matter. They'll take anybody in kids, youth, adults, it doesn't matter. And they don't ever ask for an explanation, they're just like who's coming this year, how many? We got a bunch of extra stockings with no name, so whose name do we need to get up and ready so we can have it ready for our time? And I think that that's just. Everybody should just adopt the Dan and Joanne mentality, like let's just all be Dan and Joanne this year.

Remie: 23:19

There you go.

DJ: 23:21

I was gonna ask you, before we actually jump into some content, to talk about your visits last week too, because I think that's also really important this time of year, and you've made some really intentional effort to be there.

Remie: 23:33

Yeah, so last week I did go. On Friday I went up to see a few of my friends that are in prison. It was pretty cool. I always enjoy that. It's a big commitment and I'm glad that my friends don't take it lightly. I mean, they probably put more gravity on it than I do.

Remie: 23:58

Oh, you know they prepared, you know they were excited about, you know they were I mean, I went up Thursday night, I stayed at my mom's house and then I drove into the prison that morning at eight. Well, I got up at six 30, so then what was it like? Seven, 45, nope, about seven 30, I left and, you know, got there for a visit from eight to 1230, and then no, from eight to 12 and then 1230 to 430. So I was up there all day, but it was great, man, it was great.

Remie: 24:33

Two different prisons, two different friends. Got to see some other guys that was cool with it while I was in there on the visits, guys that recognized me from when I was in there. So that was cool too. Got to see some of the staff members that obviously still worked there from when I was there and then just struck up conversation. They remember me. It was so cool cause, like one lady's, like you know, she is about to retire next month and she's like, well, I'm glad I got to see you and see that you're successful and stuff, and see that you're coming back in here, because that's what we need is more people to come back in here. Before I left and I was like, well, damn, that's cool Cause, you know, I always thought she was a mean lady. Be honest.

DJ: 25:21

Which you did not say, I'm sure. No, no, no, I always thought you were mean.

Remie: 25:25

And then there was another lady who said she's about to retire. Next year I got to talk to one of the case managers who has actually gotten a big what do you call it promotion, and it was weird because he looked at me and he was just like staring at me and he was like what's up, man, how long has it been? I don't remember your name but I remember your face and he's the same thing, like I'm glad to see you're coming back. And then he invited me to call him so that I could go back in there for programming and stuff, so which I think is awesome.

DJ: 26:00

I think it's good that staff are recognizing the importance of representation. I mean, we've said it before on this podcast, but it's like who better to come back in and say you can do this than somebody who's lived it and done it. Like it's not the same to hear it from a celebrity or Joe off the street who's got a therapy license or whatever that is. But like for you, who has lived this experience and now has come home to go back and say here are the things you can do, because I did it. I think it's really powerful. I think it's really powerful. So I'm glad that they recognize that and want you to come back. You should go back.

Remie: 26:39

I should and I will. So, moving on a little bit, because we're, you know, getting up there in minutes. This episode I don't really have a title yet, but the topic is our juvenile detention centers here in Ohio, also known as DYS, department of Youth Services but I don't like using that because they actually do a lot more than house, you know, juvenile detention facilities. But the idea for this episode was actually given to me while I was on visit in the prison, so my friend, chad, actually told me about this article.

Remie: 27:25

I have a nephew right now who's 16 and he's kind of getting in some trouble and stuff, and so Chad told me to share this article with him, because it's about a 15 year old kid who ended up going to Juvie DYS when he was 13. And he got in a fight like a lot of kids do in Juvie, because, I mean, just imagine, you got all these kids and they have nothing to do, you know, and the prisons are understaffed, just like is the case with a lot of prisons throughout the United States, and so security is a struggle. Well, this kid got into a fight with another kid that had they had been having words for a few days and, according to this article in the Columbus Dispatch, which I will share in the show notes, they got into a fight which lasted all of 15 seconds and it resulted in this kid being paralyzed from a neck down.

DJ: 28:35

Oh my gosh.

Remie: 28:39

As if that's not enough, right, the guards run in and you know this kid's on the ground and they grab him and they drag him off to a holding tail, his limp body, and he's crying and he's begging them like what if I'm paralyzed because I can't feel anything?

Remie: 29:00

And they just dropped him on the floor and walked out. And it wasn't until then that they kind of realized, like this kid didn't put up a single bit of fight and didn't even attempt to try to walk, that they said maybe he is actually injured and they actually called in some help. But I mean that's sad, right, because I mean I've mentioned it before like juvenile prison is so much more intense than adult prison. I mean you see all the videos, the movies, whatever the stereotypes of adult prison and it's like everybody's looking like Hulk Hogan and out there lifting weights and shanking people in the showers and whatever. Like that's all cool and well, but when you talk about Juvia and you talk about kids, you know our Dys houses kids that are anywhere from 12 to, I think, like 20 something, but I mean they don't have the coping skills of adults, you know.

DJ: 30:05

Right.

Remie: 30:07

So when you talk about boredom, or when you talk about anger issues or when you talk about fear or anger like they don't know how to process and manage that properly, especially not when every adult to this point has just told them that they're bad and they respond with aggression. You know you got guards in there that really I mean not saying all of them, but they're like shit. I don't get paid enough for this.

DJ: 30:35

Well, they also don't get any training. I mean to be really honest with you. I mean I've worked with Dys staff and there really is a lack of understanding about what they are supposed to do in their roles and there's nobody to really like teach them, which is also a shortcoming, because If the people who are in charge are not equipped to teach the skills that these kids need and the kids obviously don't have them like then we've already we're making a gap wider. I do remember this story. You shared it with me and somebody else shared it with me and I read it and blocked it from my head because you know, these things get me really sorry.

Remie: 31:18

Yeah, you're sensitive. I do remember. I mean you're right, because even in adult prison I mean the majority of the training that they're given just the general guards is self-defense, is how to subdue.

DJ: 31:39

It's reactive training. It's not education. Training it's not. How do I teach somebody a new skill? How do I respond when shit's already hit the fan?

Remie: 31:49

Right, I mean, I've even seen. I think that's the first time I've cussed on this podcast.

DJ: 31:53

I cuss a lot in day to day like this In this market and I'm going to do some editing with applause and everything. No, no, that's all right. Don't make that big of a deal of it. I just caught myself.

Remie: 32:03

Even in adult prison, though, like there is a separation between staff designations, and so there is administrative staff, there is security staff, and then there are the case managers and the mental health clinicians and stuff like that. But there were plenty of times that I've seen with my own eyes a clash between administrative staff and security staff, because even though the ranks are totally separate but they're supposed to be somewhat equal, right, well, I've seen security staff like man, fuck you, this is a security issue, get out of here. They don't care anything about the mental health side, how we should handle this the right way. None of that. Their job is to keep order. When I say order, I mean they feel like they're the law, and if you don't comply wholeheartedly, 100%, then shit's going to get bad.

DJ: 33:11

Yes and so in Ohio, just for some contextual information, ohio Youth Services. The Department of Youth Services operates three prisons. They are Indian River, circleville and Kyoga Falls, which in total-.

Remie: 33:30

Kyoga Hills.

DJ: 33:31

I apologize, I don't have my glasses on to read my notes, but they house about 470 offenders Ages 12 to 21, which is a huge difference in cognition and I just want to put that out there. 12-year-olds operate a lot different than 21-year-olds, but the average stay in juvenile prison is about 16 months. But it also I think this is important because I tend to I mean, you and I like to look at things sometimes from this economic perspective, particularly how much incarceration costs us, which is about $646 per day per person.

Remie: 34:11

Yeah, and I would like to note that, even though this stat here says that the average stay is like 16 months, that does not take into account that a lot of these offenders are aging out of the juvenile justice system. So remember, it's 12 to 21-year-olds.

Remie: 34:31

I don't know if you guys have ever heard the term juvie life, but that's basically however long it takes you to hit 21. Right, and then you're either released to the public or you're bonded over to adult prison. And I've seen and heard of a lot of kids who have gone in on a six-month or 12-month sentence and who've ended up getting bonded over to an adult as a 16-year-old or something like that, because of assaulting an officer or something like that. They go back to court, they get hit with five, six, seven years and then boom, they're off to adult prison.

DJ: 35:10

I would also say that how they're calculating the 16 months isn't going to be inclusive of that. It's exclusive of that number, right, because they're not looking at it as, oh, this person got this charge and their total time equaled this. They're breaking that up into per crime, right? So then it looks like we had three people and they had three different sentences, where it's one person and they've got actually a significant amount of years. The other difference is this number is also inclusive of kids who are coming in, but it's just kind of a holdover until they go back to court. So they're in for like three, four days, right, and then they go to court and they don't have to serve any more time, and so that makes it look really short, like, oh, it's 16 months per person, but that's inclusive of everybody who gets like a day, three days, five days, and then they don't have to do any more time.

Remie: 36:05

I'll tell you right now, man. There's also other juvenile justice centers which are considered like jails. They're a part of the usually they're a part of the court building and it's just like holding tails and that's where a lot of them will stay until their sentence.

DJ: 36:25

Yep, and so these numbers? Just yeah, we have to remember that it's not. It's a number but it's not inclusive of all the data. Like you could really break that down on a lot, but 16 months as an average stay. Really. There's a bigger story behind that number.

Remie: 36:43

So, out of all those kids, the almost 500 kids that are incarcerated in those three prisons, over 60% of them are locked up because of violent acts, including assault, violent property damage, homicides and even rape, and that's according to the Cincinnati Inquirer. That's insane.

DJ: 37:06

It's a big percentage yeah.

Remie: 37:08

That is a big percentage, but knowing that, I mean, over 60% of that population is violent, where does that leave the other 40% that are nonviolent? There's no separation there with them. And I mean that goes back to what you guys have heard me say before is like you're judging your prosecutor when they're talking about numbers and just you know docket numbers coming across their desk, they're not thinking like, hey, this is a good kid that got in a bad situation. They probably need more help than correction.

Remie: 37:46

They're just like oh man, this is what the crime calls for. Send them out there to, you know, Indian River. And then, when they get there, this good kid has to corrupt themselves in order to survive.

DJ: 37:57

Right, you know I have to do. The coping skills on developing aren't positive ones. They're actually really negative ones, solely for the purpose of survival. Who's that helping?

Remie: 38:07

Which then goes against them in a negative light when it comes time for early release, which they probably desperately need. When they look at stuff like that and they say, hey man, your institutional record is very blemished, so we're not going to let you go. When really you're full of nothing but remorse and desperation to get out of this bad situation that you've landed yourself in, you go further down the rabbit hole. Our juvenile justice centers and DOS, I mean it's full of gangs. Full of gangs. I mean, like I said, these kids, they don't really have much coping skills To them. They feel like everybody's abandoned them.

Remie: 38:54

So we have a lot of gangs that are really problematic for our state. Our most notorious juvenile gang is actually called the Heartless Felons. If you're from Ohio and you haven't heard of them, go to Cleveland because it is a gang that was originated in juvie. But you know kids aren't doing life.

Remie: 39:22

So, they go back to the streets, they go to adult prisons and they carry those affiliations with them. In Cleveland, the Heartless Felons, I believe, actually bought a bar, and so now they have like a base of operations. A few years ago, one of their leaders was finally prosecuted and sent it to like I don't remember like exactly, but it was like some ridiculous ass number where it was like multiple life sentences in 300 and some years or some crazy I don't know. But in adult prison though, it's like, if you have any indication that you're Heartless Felon, like there's going to be a very loose process of getting your ass to a very secure place, because they don't want that to spread anymore. It's already spread so much.

Remie: 40:18

And then, when you talk about in the juvie system, you know other gangs, you know Crips, bloods, vice-stories, gds I mean they're all beefing with each other. But I mean the Heartless Felons are like the ones, which is, you know, when you talk about violence, it's when those get out or lay down type situations. You have gangs that are beefing with each other, and every gang is trying to get that per hand. Well, if you think you're just going to be Switzerland, you think you're just going to be in the middle and not do nothing? Like no, where are you from, man? Hey, you with us? Like no, you don't want to be okay, well then, you're against us, you know. And that's another dangerous thing. So when you talk about a kid who's just trying to survive like this, is it?

DJ: 41:08

We also think about, you know, normal teen. I don't want to say normal teens because I mean all of these are normal teen experiences in some capacity, right. But if I think about just typical adolescents, peer pressure is just really hard on a day to day basis, like at school saying no to a cigarette or saying no to like going to a party or saying no to lying to your parent, like all of those very I don't know smaller things are still hard like peer pressure. I guess peer pressure is hard anyway. So when you amplify that with this environment that is unsafe, these people that are unsafe and this thing that you're now like, how do you even begin to say no to that Like? Even if you are a strong individual, it's not like. No feels like an option.

Remie: 42:05

Right and I mean me and Warren talked about it when we talked about gangs is like this is a very vulnerable time for a kid, whether they're quote unquote a bad kid or whether they're just a kid who found themselves in a bad situation. Either way, it's like you're feeling abandoned, you're feeling down and out. And then you want that sense of camaraderie, like you're in a place especially if you're a first timer like you're in a place you're unfamiliar with. You got some people that are saying they're going to look out for you. You got some people that are saying they're going to empower you. You're like, hell, yeah, that's what I want, that's what I need.

Remie: 42:45

And then when you do come through because the first thing they're going to do is they're going to send you on a dummy mission I want you to steal from him, or I want you to be him up, or you're going to do this, or we're going to beat you up. Well, when you go through that and you come out on top and then they celebrate you, that is, to be honest, that's an amazing feeling. So I mean you're in a place where it's like shit, ain't nobody going to look out for me but for my? Ain't nobody going to look out for me but myself. And then you find some other people are saying no, no, we got you back too, even against the staff.

DJ: 43:23

So I think yes, I think the staff is the other side of this right, and I think it's a really important component to this equation is that there's an added level of danger. There's an added level of feeling like you have to get in with somebody because if the staff is understaffed, if there aren't enough bodies in the building, who's keeping you safe? Right, right, why would I say no to this? You know affiliation. If I know that the people who are supposed to protect me can't protect me, like even if I know that's the right thing to do, like understaffing puts such a strain on the individuals that are there too, the kids that are there, like I mean, it's a strain on them too. I'm certain, like being understaffed it just heightens your. Like nobody's trying to teach new skills when you can't even like rotate your staff appropriately, like that's not your, you're already stressed out. Nobody's trying to teach you positive coping skills, like they don't have time for that because they can barely meet your basic needs, if they can meet your basic needs.

Remie: 44:34

I mean, and even on the staff side of it, it's like the staff need help too when it comes to mental and emotional help. I mean when you're in prisons in general, whether adult or Juneau prisons, the stuff you see in there, I mean it is crazy.

DJ: 44:55

There's a lot of secondary trauma, your process.

Remie: 44:57

I mean, you can end up with some real like PTSD type stuff, extreme PTSD from being in there, just from being the guard. It's not even inflicted upon you, but sometimes it is. I mean, I have been in when I was in TOCI and it was like four guards got stabbed by an inmate who infiltrated the protective custody block. Like yeah, you start thinking like man, I don't pay me enough for this shit, you know, and even especially with the understaff, and a lot of times it's like, depending on the issue, when it's major violence been inflicted, they tell them like get out of the block, wait for a special response team, call for backup, because it's normally one or two COs per block. So we're talking about one or two correction officers and a block with 50, 90, 100 inmates.

Remie: 45:57

When shit really hits, the hit in the fan. You're not about to be sitting here trying to put yourself in the middle of it and you haven't figured out what the situation is yet Like and they tell them like get out of there, get on the radio, call for backup, and the time it takes for that to happen I mean, like I said in this article, kid got paralyzed in 15 seconds. What's it gonna be when the authoritarian figure and the Terry figure and the security staff blocks themself outside of the block and let you guys go at it until more backup happens.

DJ: 46:33

I've recommended this book before, but the Shane Bauer book, I think it's called I think it's just called American Prison, where he, as an investigative journalist, goes into a prison to work but then he finds like he went in to expose the prison but he found himself in the process losing compassion for the incarcerated folks, even though he used to be one, because you know, I mean he's dealing with being a CO and he had to dissociate this empathy and compassion and just do the job. And he lost a lot of that and it compromised him so much that he was like I gotta pull the plug and get out of here. And I think that I'm certain that being a guard, being a staff in these facilities, has to be super draining in terms of your mental health and you're I mean you have to dissociate to do the job. Or I mean it's no wonder why the burnout is so high, it's no wonder why the staffing is so short, the pay is not good, the benefits are not good. So it's like what are you?

Remie: 47:47

I heard the benefits are actually good, I mean, but are they?

DJ: 47:49

worth it.

Remie: 47:50

No.

DJ: 47:51

For a low salary. I don't care if you're putting money in my retirement if I'm not gonna make it there, right Like if I die of a heart attack.

Remie: 47:59

When I left prison in 2018, the CO one of the COs in there told me that the starting salary was $16 an hour and I was like what? Like you're literally coming in here because I used to tell COs, I used to tell them like when they would be an asshole for just no reason, I would go over there and tell them, not as like a threat or anything, but I would like try to give them advice like amen, remember, like that every day, the inmates in here let you go home and if you continue to think that way, you'll be able to survive longer in here. But if you go in there thinking like you're gonna break the system, you're gonna break every inmate you see, and like they're gonna break you, you know they're gonna target you and that makes it not worth it.

DJ: 48:48

Like, if I die of all the stress in my body, like, and have a heart attack, do the benefits at retirement matter? Does it matter that I got good dental? I mean, my heart attack bill in my ride to the hospital is gonna still cost me a lot out of pocket. You know what I mean. So it's like when our system is flawed from the perspective of we're not paying the staff enough, we're not giving them what they need to be successful at the job, the burnout rate is high, the retention rate is low, the turnover rate is high. Like how do we then expect anybody to be taught the rehabilitation component of the entire mission? Like when we can't even retain the people who are supposed to help instill these prints. Like when we can't do that, when we can't provide them that basic level of support, of course we're gonna have a bad system. Of course we're gonna see the same kids over and over again. Of course we're gonna see them get bonded over and spend life in prison because they're gonna be repeat offenders.

Remie: 49:51

And the flip side is. The flip side of that high turnover rate is if you're not one of the ones who just fizzle out due to stress or the violent atmosphere or whatever, and you are one of those people who are focusing on the rehabilitation side, then you got everybody else because you are the minority.

Remie: 50:14

You got all the rest of your staff saying why does this person care so much about the inmates? And I bullshit you not. They will leave you in a bad situation. When you call for backup, they will not come. You know, if they feel like Right, you alienate yourself like if you feel like you're with them and not with us.

DJ: 50:31

It's an us and them mentality.

Remie: 50:34

Right, and that's.

DJ: 50:34

That's in Shane's book too. That's cute. He talks about how the other CEOs were starting to ostracize him because he was more empathetic to the incarcerated folks he was working with and he was like, oh, I'm gonna blow my cover right Cause he's there for a story and so he had to shift that and that actually ended up actually altering his mentality and that's I think that's a really spot on mentality. But you know, another thing we haven't talked about with this understaffing is the life that it then creates for the incarcerated children that we're talking about, the youth we're talking about, like lockdowns for example I mean.

Remie: 51:13

So when it comes to the staff, I mean, think of it like any other job you got last minute call-offs understaffing, so they can't feel a position, stuff like that. So that in itself is a reason for all of the kids to just be on lockdown because they don't have anybody to work that block. And when you think about lockdown, lockdown is a very security tactical thing. They're not allowed to tell you when it's gonna happen, even if it's planned. They cannot tell you when it's gonna happen because it is a security risk. So that means if you didn't know lockdown was gonna happen, especially if you didn't know it was gonna be for a whole damn day and you didn't go make your food ahead of time, you didn't go take a shower, if you were like me, like you're fresh off the basketball court and they're like all right, lock it down. You're like whoa, whoa, now you're in the cell, you got the musty butt, you mad. You like, hey, man, can I get some hot water so I can make some noodles in a cup, like, and they're like no lockdown, they're gonna come around. They're gonna pass around that little brown bag with the baloney sandwich and give you a little school milk and like that's your meal for today.

Remie: 52:25

That shit sucks, you know, especially when you don't know how long it's gonna last. You don't know when you're going in a shower, you don't know when you're gonna go to a wreck. You don't know when you're gonna be able to car your family or you gotta visit. You don't know if they're gonna let you go to the visit. You know it sucks, man, and we already talked about the effects of isolation.

Remie: 52:46

Don't mess around and be in a sale with somebody you don't like, cause if you got somebody you like, at least you could be in there playing cars, telling stories, you know, watching football game, whatever. But if you got somebody you don't like, you might as well be in there alone. You know, and I mean lockdown can last pretty. I've been on lockdown for a week before. You know that was probably the longest I've ever been on lockdown. But I'm telling you when you were in there with somebody else and you trying to take a bird bath in the sink because you just came from wreck and didn't get to go take a shower. It's bad, man. There's a lot of fights happening during lockdown.

DJ: 53:27

Yeah, I mean, I imagine so.

Remie: 53:30

And sometimes it's just to get somebody to come to the door. They will beat up their bungee just so somebody will come to the door. That's crazy, man. And what's even more crazy is like this is not something that is just like you know. Oh, it happens here and there. Like this stuff happens regularly and we don't really hear about it. Often on the outside, yeah, you know, we don't hear about it until it's like a kid that was paralyzed and then released. All the kids who you know. There are kids who die, there are people who die in prison and jails, in youth detention centers, and you don't hear anything about it.

DJ: 54:15

Right.

Remie: 54:17

You know, seriously wounded when I tell you about some of the stuff. I would love to tell you about some of the stuff that I saw in prison, like extreme violence. But I mean this is a parental advisory, but I don't want to be that graphic, like it's nuts and it's just as bad in juvie, and so I mean I would love to be able to get in the juvie. To be honest, I don't even know where I was started.

DJ: 54:52

Yeah, it's a more complex system. I think sometimes the adult prison is because there's just I mean it's a different level because of the require. They're minors for the most part, right. So that adds this extra layer of complication because of consent and all those things. So it's a harder system to infiltrate or be a part of or collaborate with. I have not followed the article you talked about at the beginning of the piece because you know I just can't. What was the outcome? How did it end so?

Remie: 55:29

you know, as I said, the kid is paralyzed from the neck down the chest down, Permanently. He's doing rehab. Okay, I mean, he's from a very low income family, so you know there's a lot of stuff.

DJ: 55:48

That complicates it too. Yeah, I'm sure there was not a super big fundraiser for that.

Remie: 55:52

I mean single mother, you know, working multiple jobs, public assistance, and then this happens. She has to take a lot of her attention off of providing to providing care. So his younger siblings are actually his caretakers. They're helping them get into the car. They don't have a van accessible, a chair accessible van. They don't have a ramp on their house yet they don't have any of the stuff that is needed to take care of a quadriplegic, you know. But he's doing physical therapy. You know he's making progress. I believe I read that he's gotten a chair with the joystick control and he's able to get himself around, which the article says. Like he really felt that that was a big accomplishment because it took a lot of the burden off of his family. You know, he gave him some independence. His big goal for his big short-term goal, is to just be able to sit himself up and get himself into his chair from the bed.

DJ: 57:00

Yeah, I think before we. Well, we're going to publish this, of course, but we're going to do some looking around to see if there are any kind of GoFundMe links or if the family is indicated anywhere where they're accepting donations or things like that, because if any community is going to want to come together to help provide support those kinds of things, it's going to be this community, and so we will make sure that that's available to you if we can find it, and if not, we'll put a note in our show notes as well that says we looked around, we can't find it yet. Please come back for an update.

Remie: 57:33

Yes, and speaking of that update part is like, if I can't get it, I mean we may find it later down the road and I'll just update the show notes and, you know, hit you guys with a like, a Facebook post update and then or something. The thing that disappointed me is, with all of the challenges ahead of him, he still has to wear an ankle monitor, you know, because the state's never going to stop doing that, you know. Punishment part. And he was right, can't even get out of a chair by himself.

Remie: 58:12

He was at one of his physical therapy sessions and they had called his mom saying hey, his ankle monitor batteries going dead and it's been buzzing. And you know no response, right, and she looks down and the light's red and it's been buzzing, but he can't feel it, he can't feel the thing on his ankle, and so they're calling, like you know what the heck?

DJ: 58:41

And she's like ready to come, like take him.

Remie: 58:43

She's like dude, we're at the physical therapy. It's like I'll do it when I get home and like kudos to her for not letting them like bully her and she's like whatever you know, but that's very disappointing. Yeah, that really kind of made me mad, but we got to do better.

DJ: 58:58

I mean, we just got to do better. I mean, if that's not a sign that things have to change, I don't know what else could be right that we were so concerned about the punishment component, that, you know, the child who's undergone this significant trauma, who's paralyzed, now has to continue to wear an ankle monitor, just in case for a while.

Remie: 59:24

It can't be getting up and going out and victimizing people. You know Right. And I admit, man, like I said earlier, I wouldn't even know where to start when it comes to going inside of a Dys and Jui facilities. I wouldn't much rather me myself do mentoring to keep them from getting there because on the inside, once they're on the inside.

Remie: 59:53

There's way too much to undo. Like I said, you got to become a monster to survive and then you got to go home and say I'm not a monster and live with everything that you did. So I would really like to do like Jui, mentor and stuff and I don't know see who we can talk to about you know, brainstorming some ideas of how to help kids on the inside and like alternative sentencing and stuff, how to better identify who are really like security risks perpetrators, violent perpetrators and stuff like that and who are actually just like misunderstood kids maybe got a temper, but find the underlying root cause of you know whatever's going on, because we definitely need to do better at identifying that rather than just saying, oh, here's a crime, send them to the you know, the big house.

DJ: 1:00:59

If you're interested in learning more about youth in particular, we have a couple of episodes on that and our archives. You can go back and look. I know in particular I did one on girls in prison which talked about it from youth female perspectives, but we have another one as well. Do you remember what the title of that one is? School to prison pipeline.

Remie: 1:01:22

School to prison pipeline, that's one.

DJ: 1:01:24

I was going to pull it, and there's another one too, but we have a few other episodes that talk about youth in particular and children being sent in. So go back and look through our archive. We are up to 56 episodes, and so there's a lot to go back and listen, even if you've listened before. So this is your cue to pause this one and go back and find another one. Got anything else?

Remie: 1:01:51

That's it for me, guys. Thanks for listening, as always love you, guys, and I really appreciate you.

DJ: 1:02:01

Bye, thanks for listening, thank you.