Peeking Behind Bars: Privacy Issues of Living in Lockdown

Hold onto your seats, folks! We're about to pull back the curtain on the often uninformed discussions around life behind bars. As your hosts, Remie and Debbie, we've got a year's worth of knowledge, insights, and heartening listener feedback to share with you. As we mark our podcast's inaugural year, we'll be reflecting on our mission's progress to debunk stigmas and misconceptions about the incarcerated, always keeping in mind that change and transformation are real and possible for everyone.

Get ready to be enlightened about the peculiarities of prison life, from a deep dive into the unsatisfactory privacy measures to the ingenious coping strategies for everyday life. Together, we'll investigate the nerve-wracking lack of privacy in the mailroom, visitation rooms, and even dorm settings across high, medium, and low security prisons. With a spotlight on the often overlooked problems of overcrowding, we’ll explore how prisoners navigate through unique struggles, including how they safeguard their personal belongings.

But that's not all! Prepare to walk through the dormitory's hallways, and witness the challenges of daytime sleep due to work hours, and the intricacies of 'bunkie' etiquette. We'll explore the psychological strain of constant surveillance, even in the showers, and how inmates adapt to these insurmountable invasions of privacy. As we wrap up our discussion, we pay homage to the humor in survival, concluding with an imaginary TikTok video, because sometimes, laughter really is the best medicine. So join us on this enlightening journey through the prison system, as we continue working towards understanding, acceptance, and change.

Transcript

Remie: 0:19

Welcome to Lockdown the Legacy stories from the inside out. I'm your host, remy Jones.

DJ: 0:25

And I'm co-host Debbie Jones. We are a husband and wife team here to bring you the real life stories, experiences and questions around the American criminal justice system. We do advise discretion with this podcast. I think we should put that out there first and foremost. Yes, we are going to talk about experiences that happen inside the prison system, outside of prison systems. We will use language that might be offensive, but we intend to keep it real. And if that's not for you, we totally understand, but please do what's best for your listening ears.

Remie: 0:56

Oh, we're about to keep it real, son. Our goal of this podcast is to share the inside realities of the American prison and criminal justice system, from pre-charges all the way to post-release, from the voices of those who've experienced it firsthand, including me.

DJ: 1:12

That's right, we're going to get into it.

Remie: 1:30

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Lockdown and Legacy. I, of course, am your host, remy, and I have the beautiful, talented and awe-inspiring Debbie Jones with me.

DJ: 1:41

And sick.

Remie: 1:43

And sick, but no less beautiful.

DJ: 1:45

What up, dj? Thank you, what up?

Remie: 1:48

What up. Glad to have you back what you been up to Finish candidacy.

DJ: 1:55

Did we talk about that? Since you've been back, we think so All right, okay, okay, full blown candid here.

Remie: 2:03

I am also slightly under the weather due to that whole spousal communal sickness thing that Debbie decided to give it to me.

DJ: 2:14

Let's back up.

Remie: 2:16

I'm sorry what.

DJ: 2:17

Say it again, but the right way.

Remie: 2:21

Debbie decided to give me sick.

DJ: 2:24

After you got me sick first.

Remie: 2:28

I don't believe so.

DJ: 2:30

But anyway, tell the truth.

Remie: 2:33

Tell the truth and shame the devil you baptized now.

DJ: 2:37

No, you said that last part.

Remie: 2:41

So, anyway, I'm on the men, though, and she's double lippin' gritty with the sickness. Man Felt better, for like what was it? Three days, a whole three days.

Remie: 2:55

Three days and then, bam, it was lovely. So the people at Walgreens and CBS they keep looking at me like, why the fuck are you back again? I just need some more cold weather than them. I'll be all right, but we gonna beat this. Yeah, we've got it and we gonna beat this. She's sounding a whole lot better. I, of course, keep to clear my throat, but you know you can't stop this. This is just dripping with swag. Yeah, anyway, I don't really think I have updates. Man, I'm sure something's going on, but I can't think of it Life be life and.

Remie: 3:39

Yeah, work kids.

DJ: 3:44

We didn't talk about, though, the podcast turning one.

Remie: 3:48

Oh yeah, that's something I actually didn't forget about. We are gonna be dropping a one year anniversary episode. Just give me some time. I'm trying to compile a bunch of clips from all the different episodes, so it's time consuming. We did have that done already.

DJ: 4:06

It's a new skill, though, too. For folks that don't know, remy does all of our audio for the podcast live from our master closet, so yeah, so if you have any compliments, please, and if you have any, what's the other word Feedback?

Remie: 4:23

Yeah, constructive criticism, constructive being the keyword criticism. Please let me know.

DJ: 4:30

Yeah, the podcast turned one on October 13th was the first episode, and that first episode was it's lonely at the bottom. So if you're a new listener, please make sure you work your way back through the catalog. That means we've got about 50 episodes now.

Remie: 4:46

Oh, I think this is the 53rd. Yeah, that is a. That's pretty amazing. It doesn't feel like it's been that long.

DJ: 4:55

That's good, I guess yeah that's good. It's been a pleasure working with you. You as well.

Remie: 5:03

And I'm so thankful for all the people who have given their time and have helped tell the stories and stuff like that and helped me tell the story of experiences from the inside. Big shout out to all of our guests.

DJ: 5:17

Absolutely. I think it's been a really great year. I think we've learned a lot about what we want this podcast to be when it grows up and just keep plugging away.

Remie: 5:29

Yeah, every episode is a learning experience and I'm eager to keep growing, keep developing. And I'm really excited about like kind of the attention that is getting from unlikely places, like with each of the last, I would say, three episodes, like we've reached more and more people each time and people have been given feedback and comments and stuff, which I really appreciate that.

DJ: 6:02

So love to bring in, and Warren, always grateful for his time and talent and energy and effort. Of course, the last couple of episodes were from Wise, who is also on the inside, and so I think lending an ear to those who are still going through those experiences is equally important to hearing the legacy of those who are now on the outside right. So continuing to advocate and showcase who's really incarcerated, I think, is important, right, because it's not these big, bad, scary, worst of the worst folks. There's a lot of misconceptions, so we're going to continue to fight to change the stigma, fight to change the realities, I guess, that are associated with incarceration.

Remie: 6:54

Yeah, because I mean there's a lot of talented people, there's a lot of genuine caring people inside and then of course I'm not trying to pull the wool over your eyes there are some people who at one point in time were really bad people, and people change. So I've actually had the experience of meeting some people who I mean. If you see the news footage of them, you were like man, this dude's insane. He's a big, scary boogeyman figure and then in person he's like some big, jovial person who's committed to change and positivity.

DJ: 7:39

Well, I mean, I think that's also something. That's something I tell you all the time. I can't imagine the crimes that you tell me about or the person you used to be. That doesn't at all reflect who you are now. So anytime we talk about something and you share something, I'm like no, that's not real life, You're just telling stories now.

Remie: 8:10

That's what we call cabin, you cabin. Telling somebody else's stories telling, some made up stories. Little embellishment.

DJ: 8:21

So I think you're living proof of that, and that's why this podcast is so great is because you're here to tell us firsthand what those experiences are like and how that change happens.

Remie: 8:36

Well, I'm really I can't say it enough I'm really appreciative for the guys on the inside who took their time to be a part of the show, and them especially, because if you've been listening since the beginning, I've said it a few times like the whole purpose of this podcast is to bridge the gap between the community and the incarcerated, and what better way for people to get an idea of who exactly is on the inside than to have these people come in and show their talent or their perspective and be an actual voice from their own mouth saying this is me, instead of me being like, oh, I'm at a lot of cool people in prison and by them doing that and then connecting with our listeners, and their listeners end up liking them and developing a connection to how many people said they love one and hearing them speaking stuff. You know that's great, that's awesome, and I'm glad that they get to experience just a little bit of what I got to experience when I was in close contact with these people. So that's great.

DJ: 9:49

Also, I want to give a shout out real quick to our day one listeners those who have been with us since the beginning have listened to every episode. We know we have a handful of you out there that have been with us since this podcast dropped last year, when we were sharing it on all of our social medias and being begging our friends and family to listen. Some of you have just done it consistently, week after week, and we're so, so grateful for that.

Remie: 10:17

For sure. Yeah, I can always tell the day one listeners, because there's times where I forgot to like, publish the episode art or something and you can see the difference in the stats of like the episode, downloads and stuff, because it'll all. It'll never drop below a certain number you know, so I really appreciate that and I'm sorry for when that happens.

DJ: 10:45

We are a work in progress. If nothing else, what one year of doing this has brought to us is experience, right Like it's one of those things where you can't learn until you do it. So we've just continued to do it, and while we continue to change and evolve, we appreciate those who continue to stick by us and offer us suggestions, tell us things you want to hear, like. All of those things are really helpful to us as we head into year two.

Remie: 11:15

Yeah, and I got some stuff that I'm trying to do for year two. You got to bear with me, though, because this is like real uncharted territory. Like I thought podcasting was uncharted territory, but it's easy for me to just come in here and talk. But there's other stuff that I got in mind involved social media, which I am not social media savvy, so I'm going to try it. I just hope that you guys are as loyal as I think you are.

DJ: 11:48

Yep, all right.

Remie: 11:50

So this episode we can move along there right, ready Transition, all right. This episode I wanted to talk about something that is out here on the outside is something we take for granted. We assume that we all have the right to it, and it is something that is almost non-existent on the inside, and that is privacy. Yeah, like we take for granted the fact that we can just close a door or like hang up the phone, whatever it is, have a conversation candidly with someone and not have someone listening to it. Like we take that for granted. I think it's something that we don't think about. It's just you think that when you talk to somebody, of course no one else is listening, especially if we're alone in the room or you go to the restroom and you close the door and do whatever. But there is like kind of like an unspoken inmate etiquette. It's not in the handbook or the rule book anywhere, but somehow you learn this on the inside and it's pretty much expected of you from other inmates, because it's kind of like a facsimile of privacy and it's different everywhere you go and depending on like security level and stuff like that. So I'm sure everybody's seen like in the movies where you know somebody's at some high security prison and all you see is just bars for days, right, there's three walls and then one wall is just bars, and then there's an opposite side of the tier where there is more sales and bars. So basically you're looking across into somebody else's sale and the whole wall's bar so you can see straight through it. So tell me, what are you doing when you're like taking a poop? When you come out the shower and you're jumping on some lotion, get dressed like it's Some people don't think of, right, right, but Basically you become so desensitized to being exposed and when you come back home, it can either go to one extreme or the other. Like, you just Always want to be like I want my privacy, or you can be one those people that's like the weirdo at the gym, you know who just comes out butt naked, and they're always like whoa bro, put on a towel and you're like yeah, you know, like you can really be like. Either. One of those and and those are the types you see on the inside too is like, there are people who really want to do everything they can to preserve what little privacy they can get, and then there's people on the other side are like man, whatever you know and I don't know, depending on security level, to see I was really like yeah, whatever. Or they're like you know cover. So yeah, it's kind of weird man.

Remie: 15:06

It's not just privacy as far as, like the intimate, you know your body and stuff, but also like you know your mail. When you get your mail it's already open. Somebody's already looked at it. If your family sent you pictures, somebody's already looked at it. If you're unknown to be a part of a gang or anything, you better believe they read your mail. They read the whole letter, you know. And sometimes you have to mail out a letter and not seal it closed. Yet Like it's crazy, and I'm sure you guys heard when I have like Warren and when I have lies on you know the cause.

Remie: 15:49

I intentionally left that recording at the beginning because it's explicitly says like the calls are monitored and recorded and all this other stuff. And I mean, if you want to, it was like a low security people you know they don't have, they don't really have to watch you, then you only have to worry about that. But if you do anything to get on their radar, you better believe they're listening to your phone calls, mm-hmm, and that's not just like in prison, that's in County jail and everything. Like the first advice my lawyer gave me when I went to the County jail, he said don't say anything on the phone and don't talk to any other inmates about your case, because there there really is a such thing as prison snitches and you better believe that they're monitoring your calls.

Remie: 16:36

And I actually asked the detective like dude, how did? How did you guys even Come and pick me up at my sister's house, you know? And he was like oh, we just listening to phone calls, man. One of you dudes was talking. I was like dude, are you crazy, man? Are you serious? Oh yeah. And then they eventually played the phone calls for me. I was like this oh man, so yeah, um, you can't ever just assume that you have privacy, man.

DJ: 17:10

Mm-hmm, I think that's really difficult, especially with your Letters. I know we're gonna, you know, talk about like the bathroom and those kinds of things here in a bit, but when you were talking about the written component, it feels so invasive that you're gonna get a letter that's from your trusted partner, whatever that relationship is, be that a pen pal or a significant other, your mom or like these people who are really important to you, and Somebody got to read that first. Right, that doesn't have any relationship to these people who are very personal to you. It just takes all of that away, that intimacy away, because, like I mean, I think about romantic relationships and you know, I'm sure you can speak to this, but like, did it feel invasive to know that when you're getting a letter from a, a girlfriend or fiance or you know, like those kinds of relationships, to then Know somebody else read it First? You're changing like sweet nothings and when I get home we're gonna go do all these things and Knowing somebody else is just kind of have read through that already.

Remie: 18:34

And it's not always Professional. You know they're not always professional about it. Like you might see the person I worked in a mail room. They might make a comment about some of your girlfriends that are, you know you know whatever.

Remie: 18:47

I recall time where this didn't actually come through the mail. It was when I was transferring between prisons and they have to go through all your stuff. And so one of the CEOs was going through my photo album and he saw some pictures of my girlfriend at the time and he took one of the pictures of my girlfriend Because she was throwing up a peace sign but like her pinky was kind of sticking out. He was like, oh, it's not a peace sign, that's a gang sign. And so he just took the picture like what can I do about it?

Remie: 19:16

Yeah, and so by the time I got into the prison and got situated and everything and went to file complaint. It's like Don't make a fuck man, get out of here. So I actually never got that resolved and I had to confront him about it later. He was like no, I never did that, man, I never did that. But I never got those pictures back. So it it got to the point, just because of that one incident, where I would tell people like man, don't send me certain kind of pictures and stuff, because you know there's guys in there there, as in their girlfriend. It's like hey, man, can you send me some racy pics, you know some wrong panties or you know whatever. And you know girls are like, okay, I understand, you know, and they'll do it. I'm like I don't send me nothing like that, you know because you don't know whose hands those are gonna end up in like you don't

DJ: 20:10

know if they're gonna get withheld. You don't know if, like, who's in the mail room. What did they take it home? Like what?

Remie: 20:16

I'm not, I mean whether they're taking it home where they're sitting there, snapping a picture of it with their cell phone.

Remie: 20:21

Yeah or you know, whatever it is. It's like you can't assume that there's privacy involved. It's 10 people saw it before you saw it, you know. And that's why, like now that there's more electronic ways of communicating, like I actually just sent, sent some pictures to wise. I sent them six pictures and it was just you know me, you and the kids, and All six of them got denied and I was like what the fuck? Yeah, so I made sure that I told him, because they don't tell the inmate that the pictures got denied or withheld. It used to be in in hard mail and snail mail. They would give you a contraband slip. They will put it inside the letter and say, hey, one or two pictures or whatever got withheld. This was the reason. You can decide whether you want to pay to have it sent home or if you want to destroy. But now that it's electronic down and do that, they just withhold it and don't even tell them.

Remie: 21:24

Yep, crazy yeah but I Mean there's. There's all types of forms of privacy, right, like? Just imagine the visit room. There's 40 families in one room and you're sitting there holding your significant others hand. Somebody else next to you might be getting some hard news that somebody died or might be a breakup, or you know, you know there's a family, somebody's over there spending time with their kids. There's always the one creep who's trying to get freaky in the visit room. That does happen. You know I'm serious and and they don't care, they'll try to do it with the group of kids sitting right next to what? Somebody's grandmother sitting right next to them, like they're shameless. You know it's whatever. But, like I said, you get so desensitized to Always having somebody there that you know people just like me.

DJ: 22:21

I fuck it how about Privacy in like the dorm Setting? So I know that you've had multiple experiences at different places, but the one that always sticks out to me is when you're like my bunk was one bunk in like a sea of, yeah, 200 bucks or something like that, where People are just everywhere all the time the lights don't go out. Somebody's always awake.

Remie: 22:49

Yeah, so you know I started off in a higher security where we were in sales. The prison was actually a close security, so it was a level three, but it was built to be a maximum security prison and so Actually that's one of the prisons I wanted to talk about. It was a Toledo correctional to CI and they nicknamed it the fishbowl Because instead of having like all the bars that I talked about, it's all plate, steel and plexiglass. So every block, the front of the block is just like steel, like a steel grid, with plexiglass windows in between, right, so you can see in from outside. That's every block, so all the blocks are like across from each other, so you can see in to the block across the shower, like if you're in the shower it's a plexiglass wall and on the other side of walls, the hallway. So like I could just become a wreck from wreck and look over to the left I'm like, oh man, look that being a shower, like it's crazy, right.

Remie: 24:06

But in the dorm, you know, I eventually worked my security level down to where I was in, a level two and eventually level one, which is minimum security, and I hated it. I hated it I. When I got to level two. It was culture shock because I'd never been in a dorm before. I Was actually used to being in a single man's cell for a long time until eventually they doubled it up because, you know, prisons are overcrowded. So they came in, put two people in every sale in Toledo, which really caused some problems.

Remie: 24:37

But once I got to a level two it was like really culture shock, like it's a warehouse. Essentially it's a warehouse with three or four hundred bunk beds and you're just a person on a bed and the space in between the bed is your space. You know, usually the space in between the bed is about Maybe three and a half feet, just enough to get a cabinet in there so you can like sit your TV on. And I think it had four drawers at the bottom and a little area so you can like have a cubby hole on each side.

DJ: 25:16

How do you prevent somebody from like Going through your stuff in a dorm style Environment because there's so much going on all the time? Like what if you go to work out or play basketball and you're not I mean, it's not like you ever have a cell door that closes You're like in a room Like summer camp kind of, with all these beds everywhere. Yeah, I'm not suggesting the environment was like summer camp.

Remie: 25:43

I mean like so that's a real concern and it depends on who you are. Of course, nobody is, you know, immune to be stolen from or anything like that. But For the most part, like, if you're somebody, then your stuff's a little bit safer, you know. But you know they give you a locker box and it's just. You know, it's a 2.4 cubic foot square box. You could put a lock on it and Technically everything you own is supposed to be able to fit inside that box.

DJ: 26:22

Yeah, but that doesn't make sense to me, because what if you order food but you also have sentimental things like both things can't go in there and I would imagine that both things other people would want, right, like some folks were gonna want your private letters and stuff because it freaks, but other people are gonna want your food because they don't have a food box.

Remie: 26:44

Yeah, so this is like I said it's. It's easier if you're somebody you know, with the air quotes, because because, for example, I I only had the problem of having to defend myself one time in prison for to where somebody stole from me, but For the majority of my 10 years I never locked my cell door, I never locked my locker box Like it, just because I was one of those people. It was hard here, like I dare motherfucker to try me, you know, and I got humbled. Eventually somebody stole from me, but I mean for the majority of the time I just didn't.

Remie: 27:26

There are some people who try their very best. They stuff that locker box to the gills. They make sure that everything is folded perfectly to maximize the space. They put their food in there, they put their shoes in there, like everything. Whereas if you don't like, like me, I used to put Clothes that I had iron and stuff like my visit clothes and all that. I will put them under my mattress.

Remie: 27:53

You know I have four drawers. So you know I mean I two drawers, because there was two for each of us. So one of my drawers was like underwear and socks and t-shirts, you know. And then my other drawer was like I will put my, my Tupperware bowls and like soups and stuff like that little small food, and then I will put like higher, you know, exotic food stuff that you can't get at commissary, or something like that. I will put that in my locker box. And of course I will put all my photo albums and my letters and stuff in my locker box too. It helps, I didn't have to put all that other stuff in there, you know.

Remie: 28:33

But, um, you know you, you put like if you got high-end electronic items, high-ticket, you put that in there. But for the majority there's also like the in the dorms thing or even in the sales. It's kind of like a what do you call it? Neighborhood watch, you know. And this is why there are some other episodes where I'd said that I ended up kicking people out from the sale next to me. Like you bring in the wrong type of attention to this area. Like you got to go Because I want somebody in the sale next to me that's strong enough, with a good reputation, to where they don't bring bad, you know, energy in this area either and also they gonna look out and be able to stand up and stop somebody if they see somebody going through my stuff.

DJ: 29:26

Does that happen? I guess so in any environment. Now I've just got all these questions, but I'm not exclusive to the dorm environment but in general, what happens if somebody goes to the hole, Like if you or your bunkie or Somebody close to you goes to the hole? Obviously they're not taking that stuff with them, because the whole point Solitary confinement is to strip them of those things. So who protects the stuff when they're gone?

Remie: 29:58

It's. It's kind of like a lottery man. There's a few different scenarios that could play out. A few go to the hole. If you're lucky they let you come pack your own stuff up. And Even that can go multiple ways, because if they come and watch you pack your stuff up, or if they come back and doesn't fit in the box.

Remie: 30:21

Yeah, if they come back and check up on you and stuff and they're like, hey, that's not 2.4. You know, then they're gonna take anything that doesn't fit. There's no taking stuff out of the box to put other stuff in. They're like, oh, it's full, great, let me get all the rest that stuff and I'm gonna throw it away like it's contrament, because it's all supposed to fit. If they're not watching you and they're not like checking the stuff.

Remie: 30:45

Usually you give certain stuff to people to hold, like if you think you're coming back, you like, amen, hold on to this for me. We used to have like a cooking bag. It was like a net bag that we kept all our seasonings and stuff in. Like you know, hold on to this. You know, hold my Tupperware. You know stuff I'm not gonna eat the whole, but I come get it when I get back out. And then you know I like I've paid people to hold stuff for me. You know I had people that I was cool with that. I was just like you, hold on to this. And there were some people I just blessed it like yo, you could have this man, like you know, but you can't always take it.

Remie: 31:25

Other circumstances, though, like if you go to the hole and they never bring you back to the dorm or to the cell to pack your own stuff. First priority is your bunkie has to pack it for you. Hopefully you got a good bunkie, because it's not uncommon for bunkies to steal stuff, stuff like that. But at the same time you know Usually you try to get a good bunkie where they gonna be like no, I need to make sure he get this, I need to make sure you get that.

Remie: 31:55

They're allowed to send stuff to you to the hole. So they're like all right, put this together so you can take that to the hole. You know they, but he gonna eat this, he gonna eat the legal pad, he gonna eat some envelopes. So hopefully you got a good bunkie. If your bunkies unavailable, the CEO could just go grab any porter or any other and made him like y'all, I need you to compact this stuff for me, or they could do it themselves. The last thing you want is for a CEO to pack your stuff for yourselves, because most likely they're gonna shake you down in the process.

Remie: 32:27

You never know.

DJ: 32:29

You wanna give a good recap on a shakedown if this is somebody's first episode.

Remie: 32:35

A shakedown like while you're going to the hole, or it's love of the shakedown.

DJ: 32:40

Well, like yes. However, you want to do that, all right, all right, so this is a little terminology.

Remie: 32:45

This is a sidebar Shake. What shake downs are when the CEOs come and search your property and belong is for contraband. Contraband is anything illegal technically, but also which is the petty definition of contraband is anything that you're not supposed to have, which includes anything that's not yours. So if your friend lets you borrow a CD player or a magazine, anything Anything that has their name on it, if the CEO finds it in your possession is instantly considered contraband and they take it. They don't give it back to the other person, they just take it. There's certain items that are not sold anymore, or your or you can't get anymore, but are considered grandfathered. If you already have it, they make sure they're on the lookout. So if they ever see that item in anybody else's possession, they have reason to take it and it sucks Shake downs on a higher level. They have what's called SRT, which is a security response, some I don't know whatever, but it's basically a volunteer group of CO's from all over the state that band together to do like basically raids, like they come in and they prepare and like the access hallways and stuff for maintenance and they just storm the block at like 3 am and shake down everybody in the unit and it's the worst Because you know, I don't know what you sleep in.

Remie: 34:29

You can sleep in your underwear, no shirt. You can sleep naked. Whatever you got on when they come is how you getting thrown out in the hallway. You know, if you in the new on the sales, they put you on the hallway, they zip tie you, they search you and then they sit you on the ground in the hallway. So I mean, there's been times where I was in my boxers Whole joint just hanging out the side. I can't do nothing, I'm zip tied behind my back, you know, and there's, the whole unit is just lined with other dudes that's out there in the underwear and stuff, because they came at 3 am.

DJ: 35:05

So you know, I told you just, I told you this just yesterday, I think, cuz so we watched, you made me watch Flavor Flav sing the national anthem and I feel such secondary embarrassment for people. It's why Sometimes reality TV is like my jam, but other times it's like I can't watch this. It's too, it's too cringy, because I feel like such secondary embarrassment. And so the story you just described, I Felt so embarrassed. You saw it on my face, my cheeks are my cheeks red.

Remie: 35:46

Yeah.

DJ: 35:48

It's just, I felt embarrassed, felt embarrassed.

Remie: 35:50

Yeah, there's no modesty, there's no modesty and I jokingly say this a lot, but I'm like you know, no complex, there's no complex. And man, you sitting out on the range and there's 50 other guys, it's 50 other dicks. You're saying no complex, don't get cost there. You know, stop, I'm serious. So yeah, that's like you know, the high-level SRT shakedowns so, speaking of sleep, though, I who say anything about sleep?

DJ: 36:21

You did, you talked about.

Remie: 36:22

however, you sleep how you get thrown out in the hallway, I didn't just make it up.

DJ: 36:29

So, speaking of sleep, how do people choose to sleep? Is it just like this, again no complexes kind of mentality. So I'm thinking back to the dorm when you got to sleep with like 200 other people in the same exact space as you. There's no like lights out time, right, I mean like there's well, there's probably a time when it gets darker, but the lights don't go off. There's not like an everybody Right, go to sleep now time.

Remie: 36:56

Yeah, there's no bad time. The lights do dim, but it never gets dark, because of security reasons, right, and the CEO's got to be able to walk around and do count throughout the night.

DJ: 37:07

So how do people like cause? Do you feel comfortable sleeping in your boxers or naked?

Remie: 37:14

or whatever.

DJ: 37:16

In those situations, I guess what was your progression? Like Cause, I mean, I know, dorm wasn't your first setting, but like at first did you care and then you didn't care, or like did you never care.

Remie: 37:28

So I mean, when I was in the cell by myself, I just slept in my underwear until, of course, I had that SRT experience. I was like I'm going to start sleeping in basketball shorts, just in case. Yeah, and I'm dead serious. Like from then on I slept in basketball shorts and a beater. But like in the dorm, it's hard because you know in the cell, when it's you and your bunkie, there is a such thing as etiquette. You know bunkie etiquette, but in the dorm it's like you might get some people that you know are cool but at the same time you know if you're one of those people that, like working the chow hall third shift overnight, you got to sleep during the day.

DJ: 38:11

And nobody's going to be quiet in the dorm during the day.

Remie: 38:14

There is absolutely no peace during the day.

DJ: 38:17

I didn't think about that.

Remie: 38:19

Like you can be on a top rack. You're bunkie on a bottom rack and pull the locker box between the beds and he plans spades with or some type of cards with the dude on the next rack over, like they slapping cars, they yelling, they might have music playing. You know it's people yelling over to the next aisle about some sports that's on like it's really no peace and you sitting there trying to sleep because you got to go to work at 10 pm, like is what is. In the beginning I stuff my ears with toilet paper. Once I got to the dorm, like level one, they sold earplugs on, commissary, so I would sleep with earplugs. But I mean that takes confidence, that takes. You got to feel real secure.

DJ: 39:08

Yeah.

Remie: 39:08

Because I would not sleep with my head towards the aisle, like I knew people that slept in their boots Just in case, you know, stuff popped off. Like I would sleep with my hat pulled down over my eyes but I could still see out toward the aisle to see if somebody's coming in. I was a pretty light sleeper, but you know I wouldn't say light sleeper, I was like an active listener while I was asleep.

DJ: 39:35

Yeah, that is not your jam.

Remie: 39:40

No, I'll be out. I got total trust in my wife man, so if anything happened to me, you all know who did it. I'm just saying a light sleeper does not.

DJ: 39:50

That qualifies one of us, and it's not you. You're not a light sleeper, okay.

Remie: 39:56

Anyway. So, yes, it's, it's hard. Man, being in a dorm is absolutely hard, because there's Like you go to the shower, you're either one of those people to get fully dressed before you leave the shower store, or you want those people to just walk back in the town and get naked at the rat. At the rat, you know, just start putting on lotion. Either one is fine, it's totally acceptable.

Remie: 40:22

When I was level one, though, they came up with these pre laws which are like prison rape elimination act, yeah, but they decided to cover the CEOs under it too. So it was intended for inmates to prevent, you know, inmate on inmate, what's the word I'm looking for? Assault. But because women worked in prison, they was to be like oh, because of Priya, you can't be at your bed without a shirt on, because women work here, or you can't walk out of the shower, you know, without being fully clothed. I'm like dude. And so I used to tell people, I used to tell the female CEOs man, because I was an asshole, I would like look. It's a shame to fight for, for equal rights in the workplace. If you can't do the job, you shouldn't work here. I live here. There's no way. On a 95 degree day. I'm not going to be sitting on my bed shirtless. If you don't want to see that shit, don't come in here. And of course they were like shut the fuck up. I understand your point though, like it's.

DJ: 41:37

It's a place that they're coming for employment and it's a prison, so there should be some understanding of the environment in which they are working. But, to your point, you live there. You don't have an opportunity to go home at the end of the day, because that's where you spend 24 hours a day, seven days a week, every holiday, every. I mean like there are no exceptions to that. There's no reprieve from prison. So having I understand the act and I think it's really necessary, and that sounds like an instance where somebody is using it as an excuse to enforce something or show authority over somebody, and not so much for protection of, I mean, because if it's meant for assault, that feels like a very different thing than hey, you have your shirt off on your bunk, so yeah.

Remie: 42:38

But I'm speaking of showers.

DJ: 42:40

Yes, I'm ready for the shower and the toilet conversation.

Remie: 42:47

So the shower. I don't know who designed these prisons, man, but it's like they got the architect to be like nah, nah, anything you can do to make privacy like absolutely impossible, like do it. So I told you guys about Toledo TLCI, where the shower wall is plexiglass. Due to the fact that that was meant to be a Super Max and it was single man sales, there was only three showers per tear, so you know, six showers total on the block. That's not a lot. When you start getting down to like medium and minimum security prisons, though, like the shower is the same as the bed area, like it's just a big ass room with a hundred shower nozzles on it on the wall, there are no shower stalls, there are no wall dividers, no curtains. There might be one curtain to cover like the entrance, but other than that, like once you in there, like it's you know hey, what's up everybody. And so there's for security. You know, for your own personal security.

Remie: 43:54

Like I would never wash like my hair and have soap in my face, like it just wouldn't happen. Like I would wash one side of my head, keep my back to the wall, rinse and wash the other side. There were like these little pedestals where you could sit, your soap and stuff, but there were no like dividers. So I mean my dude P I think I said this before like my dude P was shower in his state issue boots, because he got jumped on time when he was in the shower.

Remie: 44:26

So he would go in there in his, in his boots no flip flops, none of that Like and he would shower with his back to the wall. He would wait and always get the last shower. So he kept his back to the wall and I was like my dude, it ain't that serious. But at the same time I don't know he was jumped and I wasn't near. I don't know how bad it was, but I'm sure it's pretty traumatic to get jumped in the shower. I have fought in the shower. That is something I have done. But naked fighting in the shower, that does happen.

DJ: 45:00

Did you fight about?

Remie: 45:05

So there was one time I fought in the shower.

DJ: 45:09

Oh, more than once.

Remie: 45:10

Yeah, okay. So I was actually to defend my friend because he was getting jumped. So that was pretty crazy because you know, it was my first time fighting in the shower. I'm naked. I'm like trying to like, oh shit, let me hurry up and run and put on like my boxes or something. But then of course you know, like I flip flops. Flip flops don't come off easy when you wet. I'm like you know about to rip my whole box. I just run over there like fuck it and just start fighting. And then I felt so gross because I used to be super like a germaphobe. So you know, my foot touched the ground, my flip flop broke.

DJ: 45:49

I was like ah, you're still that way with showering.

Remie: 45:54

I got to go clean up and I touched the walls of the ground Hotel there being bees, but yeah, the second time was actually because this dude disrespected me at Wreck and he was one of them dudes that thought like you could say anything and you could sound tough and there's no repercussions after that, you know. So when we got back to the block this is back when I still level three we got back to the block and I just happened to be in a shower and he come in and he said something to me in the shower like some smart and I'm like well, you know, you talking like you can't get punched in the mouth. Oh, whatever, man, you ain't going to do this and you ain't got to wish the motherfucking wood. And so the whole time he doing this, you could tell he ain't never been like in no action because he's so putting up his hair. The whole time he's saying this, you know.

Remie: 46:56

So I just put my stuff down and walk over there like what the fuck are you saying? Like man, hey, what you doing? Man, get away from me. Like bro, I need you to say the same stuff you were saying, right? So he was clearly not trying to go there, man, but I had to push the issue. So, butt naked in the shower, it was just me and him and I ended up just slapping the dude Wow, open hand. And he like stumbled and slipped and slide and got back up Like I can't believe this dude just did it and he put his hands up and I just stood there like you know, like, bro, I'm going to eat apology and he was all types of MF for this and that. And next thing, you know, man bam we fighting in the shower. I beat him up and then I went back over there and finished washing up, just like that. I know you're with a real stud baby.

DJ: 47:59

That was exactly what I was thinking. You're so right.

Remie: 48:02

Man listen.

DJ: 48:03

I got some crazy experiences in prison, I'm sure 10 years is a long time to rack up some, some stories, but you know what I want to know about.

Remie: 48:13

Oh, what do you want to know about the pooping?

DJ: 48:15

I want to know about pooping, okay.

Remie: 48:18

Before we go there, let me describe so that was the shower in Toledo. When I got to level two, the shower situation was insane and it really, really bothered me because I told you I was already in culture shock. So imagine there's a big warehouse, there's a bathroom in the middle, so there's a side and B side is divided by the bathroom. There's an entrance on both sides. I'm sorry. When you walk in, it's the sink area right. Then you turn to the left and there's two urinals on each side and then there's three toilets on each side. There are no separators or dividers between the toilets.

DJ: 49:06

Got it Well, actually, I'm sorry.

Remie: 49:08

I'm sorry they were. There's no separators or dividers between the urinals, but between the toilets there are these little stubby walls that come out like three feet and they come up to like your shoulder height. So you know there's no door, there's no, nothing like that.

DJ: 49:24

Got it, so just like a wall of toilets.

Remie: 49:27

Yes, and there's three on each side, so you're sitting across from somebody that's also on the toilet and so basically that little wall, so like you can sit your toilet paper roll and stuff up there. But people would make like these People like tear up old sheets and stuff and put like a couple shoestrings in it and like put a couple books on each end so at least from the you know shoulder down, they had like a curtain in front of them that like laid over it, stopped right by their knees and stuff. Get a little bit of privacy. I mean, anybody wanted to look over, it was that while they were walking by they could. But whatever, at least you don't got to look at the guy across from you when you're trying to wipe your butt, you know. So this is the interesting part. Though there's the urinals, then there's the toilets. Beyond the toilets are the showers. Oh no.

DJ: 50:25

That is not sanitary.

Remie: 50:26

No.

DJ: 50:27

And you have to walk through the poop.

Remie: 50:29

You have to walk through the urinals and the toilets to get to the showers and once again, and then you walk back out, though.

Remie: 50:36

Once again, there are no stall like curtains or doors or anything like that. So it's like 12 showers down there and they got those little three foot walls that jut out. You could sit your soap and stuff on, but that's it. So imagine summertime, you know 85, 90 degrees, bathrooms packed, and you're coming in there to get a shower. You got to walk between all these people people pooping, people jerking off whatever it is they're doing on the toilet, because it happens. And you got to go to the shower. Everybody's in there talking. You're trying to take a shower. There's dudes on the toilets yelling to you while you're in the shower, asking you about like sports or whatever it is they're trying to talk to you about.

Remie: 51:22

I hated that. Like bro, don't talk to me, Especially not if I'm the one on the toilet. Don't talk to me, bro. And then, of course, you got to walk back out and like people think they cool with you. They get to like mess with you and stuff, knock your toilet paper off, whatever it is Like. Oh, I hated that environment, I hated it. I hated it. But you know that little curtain though man, like that was the clutch People had their own little toilet like preparation kit. Got my toilet paper, got my book, got my curtain, you know, and the sale was a little different. So usually, like I said, you got the bunky etiquette Like. So that etiquette is I'm gonna poop when you're not here. If you're at rec, I'm gonna poop while you're at rec. If I go to Chow and you know you don't, you poop while I'm at Chow.

Remie: 52:10

No, you just queue that up, though I mean you learn your bunkies routine, so you know that's how it goes. But of course there's those times where, like you're locked in a cell and you're like yo, this got to happen. So once again you got that makeshift curtain. You know, you get some paper clips, some heavy duty paper clips or something. You hook it in whatever crevice you can, you drape it across and if there's nowhere to hang it, they would simply throw the sheet over their head while they poop.

DJ: 52:41

Like a ghost.

Remie: 52:41

Like a ghost.

DJ: 52:43

That's all I'm thinking I knew you would like that man.

Remie: 52:47

So I actually thought about it like y'all got to start a TikTok and I got to do this video Cause like Like a Halloween costume. Yeah, like you just walk in on me and I'm like sitting there with a sheet over my head, booping or something, while you're trying to brush your teeth.

DJ: 52:58

Like a reaction video. Yeah, that's gonna be our first TikTok for the podcast.

Remie: 53:03

So yeah, I mean like, if you can't put up the curtain, throw that baby over your head. Courtesy flush People have fought over, not courtesy flushing man, like it's real, let's see, let's see. So of course I told you Toledo's the fishbowl. So they had a plexiglass window in the door and we were like repurposed cardboard, like from the legal pads or whatever else. We would like cut them to the size of the window or maybe a little bit bigger, so it'll bow a little bit. And we would like cut out pictures from magazines and, you know, paste them on there, tape them on there, whatever. And we would like line the window with those to like keep the view out. And a lot of CLs was cool about it, cause they don't want to see, like they look in and you right there taking a poop, whatever. So a lot of CLs were cool about it, but it was some CLs. That was just decks and if you had the paper up in the window they would just snatch your door open and tear it all out and slam your door close.

DJ: 54:17

What about?

DJ: 54:18

the after though.

DJ: 54:19

Cause even with a courtesy flush poop doesn't smell good, right, right, so it's gonna linger.

Remie: 54:27

So we used to buy. They used to sell like the little essential oils and stuff severely overpriced. So we would mix them with water and repurpose like an old nasal spray bottle or something I'm serious and we were filling with the oil and water and we would spray it Like a like a Febreze yeah. I told you, man, if there's a wheel, there's a way of the joint. Man, you gotta figure it out. This is amazing.

DJ: 54:55

You play a ghost and then spray it, and then spray your flow names Febreze, yeah, yeah, and it'll be like everybody has one, like every sale.

Remie: 55:07

So somebody be like yo. Yo, hey, can I borrow your spray real quick, like yeah yeah, I mean so.

DJ: 55:13

it's funny, but it's not. This is reality for folks, this is reality. And that's horrifying. I mean I get it. I get the security and the safety aspect, but like it makes me wonder are we dehumanized? Like are we creating these procedures and practices intentionally to continue to dehumanize? Does that make sense? I mean out loud, yeah, and I get it. I don't know if I'm saying it the way, I'm thinking it.

Remie: 55:45

I get it. I kind of actually, after being in there, I kind of have I understand both sides.

DJ: 55:52

Yeah, I mean, I see it.

Remie: 55:54

And I actually I hated it but at the same time I appreciated it because, like even in the bathroom I just described, the CEO would have to walk back there and check all the shower stalls and stuff. There's people in their shower but there was an old guy that ended up passing out. It was one of those really hot days. You know the shower, you couldn't adjust the temperature. It was the little push button the water comes on. So it was really hot water in there. It was like 90 degrees and the old man passed out.

DJ: 56:22

It was really good because a lot of times I've heard that water's really cold.

Remie: 56:27

Well, in the winter time it's gonna be a different story.

DJ: 56:30

Got it.

Remie: 56:30

I'm sorry I get it now, but yeah the guy passed out man in the shower and a CEO actually got in trouble because he considered himself to be one of the cool CEOs, that kind of just let it be and he didn't go back there to do his rounds and check the shower stalls and stuff.

Remie: 56:48

I see, and the old man was passed out in the shower. Other inmates actually ended up helping him, which was cool. But on one hand you're like bro, give me some fucking privacy. But on the other hand you're like man. I'm glad they caught that old man.

DJ: 57:01

Right, yeah, absolutely, there are definitely two sides to it. It just I often wonder, like, can we rebuy? He's in a little bit Like are there better ways? But I'm sure there's always room for improvement. I have learned so much about the lack of privacy in prison today.

Remie: 57:25

Yeah, I mean, and like the ingenuity, I mean the little curtains, the sprays.

DJ: 57:31

How people create their own privacy in a space that you essentially aren't gonna get it Right. You're not gonna have it, so how do you make the best of the situation?

Remie: 57:42

Yeah, I used to. So on days I cleaned myself. I used to do this thing where I would clean out my trash can. It was like a really hard, sturdy plastic and I would scrub it out and I would fill it with water and then I would like bring. I would smuggle back the orange peels and stuff from lunch and I would like put the orange peels in the water, sprinkle like some cinnamon in there and I created a stinger so I would put it in there and it would heat up the water and so, like myself, he's smelling great man and all citrus and cinnamon is the.

DJ: 58:17

He created a steamer.

Remie: 58:19

Stinger.

DJ: 58:20

Stinger, what's that?

Remie: 58:22

So I ended up tearing the power cord off of an old stereo and I broke apart some toenail clippers and I put some popsicle sticks in between until it insulated, and then I wrapped floss around it, and then I connected the positive and negative to each side and when you put it in the water it closes the circuit, so it heats up the water.

DJ: 58:50

You're so innovative I would have never thought of any of that.

Remie: 58:58

Pretty cool. I mean, they actually sell stingers, though, at some prisons. So if you were fortunate enough to have a real one, that was great Cause. Otherwise you threatened to. You know, like, if you're that guy that pops the breaker and you know 10 sales lose power like you. Better hope they don't find out it was you, oh man. But yeah, there's just so much stuff that I mean I could talk about this stuff forever. The worst is just like trying to sleep, man, like I know you don't consider that when you the first thing, when you think of privacy, but trying to sleep, and especially in the dorm, and you got 600 people that you're like, oh, can you all be quiet? Yeah, the fuck. Right, you know.

DJ: 59:54

Well, I, you know I, how I, I love, I love cult stuff, learning about cults and different things. One of the commonalities across cults, or like knowing that it's a cult, is the leader or leaders depriving the followers of sleep, and so it makes me wonder.

Remie: 1:00:18

If there's cults in prison.

DJ: 1:00:20

No, if they're promoting like you know what I mean Like it's following those same types of cult red flags, of depriving individuals of sleep to create behaviors, to create you know these environments, sometimes they're. They're constructs that are created and not the other way around.

Remie: 1:00:39

So I mean like if you got a third shift CO that is a dickhead or y'all somebody and pissed them off. I mean those lights might not dim at night.

DJ: 1:00:49

Right.

Remie: 1:00:50

You know so. Yep. Yeah, or maybe he'll just keep getting on the intercom and making weird ass announcements and stuff all through the night. I'm seeing some real petty people do some petty stuff. Well thank you.

DJ: 1:01:07

Thanks for sharing all of that. That was really insightful Even to I mean, like that was insightful for me. I appreciate you telling your stories, yeah.

Remie: 1:01:16

Thanks.

Remie: 1:01:18

Oh, one last thing I forgot to say which I think I said before, in prison there's I told you about the real 21, right Disabandoned for director. So at any time any staff member could just come by and tell you to strip. That sounds a little extreme because of course you know they wouldn't do that, right, but you be surprised. Well, I got my CDO in prison.

Remie: 1:01:50

I was in the class and this group of CO's came into the class and said we need everybody to come out in the hallway and strip. And luckily, my teacher was like what the fuck are you talking about? And he was like in the what was it Like horticulture program or something? A pair of shears came up missing, which was not our program, which was not even in our building, but they had to walk through that building to go to lunch. And so he was like so we need everybody to come out and strip because we're looking for them. And the teacher was like I can vouch for everybody in here. They haven't left this room and stuff.

Remie: 1:02:29

But the teacher essentially has no power, like he's talking to. You know you got the staff is separated by administrative staff and security staff. So security staff is like we don't give a fuck, everybody come out here and strip. And we're like what. Come in the hallway and strip, like, yeah, everybody come up and there's nothing you could do, like, all right, now, fuck it, everybody come out here and strip. You're either stripping or you go on to the hole and you don't strip anywhere when you get to the hole. So don't assume that you got that privacy or you got the right, because you definitely don't.

DJ: 1:03:10

And it sucks. Yeah, that's extreme.

Remie: 1:03:13

Yeah, and you always hear me sometimes when I'm like give me a, not one. That's actually like a joke from prison, because there was this CEO who was always there. Whenever somebody was getting stripped he was there and he wanted everybody to stand in the same room like elbow to elbow and strip all at once, and when one person was done, they would leave out and get dressed in the next room and he'd be like give me another one.

DJ: 1:03:45

Like your catalyst.

Remie: 1:03:46

Exactly man, so it's funny I brought that home. That sucks.

DJ: 1:03:52

You did. You say it a lot.

Remie: 1:03:55

All right, man, that's it for me, I guess.

DJ: 1:03:59

I gotta get you out of here before.

Remie: 1:04:01

Yeah, thanks for less than hope. It was entertaining and informative.

DJ: 1:04:06

That's right. I'm sure it was. It was for me.

Remie: 1:04:09

Yeah, glad to have you back, love.

DJ: 1:04:11

Thanks brother.

DJ: 1:04:20

The Lockdown to Legacy podcast is proud to be a part of the Buzzsprout podcast community network. Lockdown to Legacy is recorded at Kohatch in their lovely audio file room. Thanks for your scholarship. Audio engineering is done by our very own Remy Jones. You can reach us with any feedback, questions, comments or share the love by emailing stories at lockdown, the number two legacycom stories at lockdowntoolegacycom. You can reach out there too for a free sticker, and you can find us on Instagram and Twitter with the handle at lockdowntoolegacy and on Facebook at the Lockdown to Legacy podcast. Thanks for listening.