Prison Scars: A Dive into Post Incarceration Syndrome

Welcome to another thought-provoking episode of Lockdown the Legacy, where we dig deep into the gritty realities of the American prison system and the tangled road to reintegration post-incarceration. I, Remie Jones, and my co-host, Debbie Jones, invite you to join us on this journey, where we unravel hidden facets of prison life, and the scares and mental/emotional struggles we bring home with us from incaceration.

Navigating the choppy waters of reintegration, we bring to focus an obscure yet very real issue: Post Incarceration Syndrome (PICS). We lay bare its debilitating symptoms and the profound impact it has on those attempting to assimilate back into society. We also share personal anecdotes of prison scars, offering a raw glimpse into the invisible, yet lasting effects of incarceration on our daily lives. Venturing next into the prickly territory of post-incarceration relationships, we unpack the complexities of reconnecting with loved ones who might struggle to fathom the experiences of a former inmate.

However, we don’t confine ourselves to problem-spotting. We also endeavor to illuminate the pathway to successful reintegration by shedding light on valuable resources and effective strategies. Stressing the crucial role of mental health support and the necessity for patient, empathetic relationships, we advocate for a kinder, more understanding approach toward those wrestling with post-incarceration trauma. So, whether you're directly affected, or you're just seeking to broaden your understanding, we invite you to join the conversation. Together, we can reshape the narrative around post-incarceration. Be part of the change!

Links to the articles used in this episode can be found at the below links:

https://www.wgbh.org/news/local/2023-09-25/why-people-leave-prison-more-broken-than-when-they-entered

https://joinnia.com/post-incarceration-syndrome/

https://www.november.org/stayinfo/breaking/PICS.html

Transcript

Remie: 0:19

Welcome to Lockdown the Legacy stories from the inside out. I'm your host, Remie Jones.

DJ: 0:25

And I'm co-host Debbie Jones. We are a husband and wife team here to bring you the real life stories, experiences and questions around the American criminal justice system. We do advise discretion with this podcast. I think we should put that out there first and foremost. We are going to talk about experiences that happen inside the prison system. Outside of prison systems. We will use language that might be offensive, but we intend to keep it real, and if that's not for you, we totally understand, but please do what's best for your listening years.

Remie: 0:56

Oh, we're about to keep it real, son. Our goal of this podcast is to share the inside realities of the American prison and criminal justice system, from pre-charges all the way to post-release, from the voices of those who've experienced it firsthand, including me.

DJ: 1:12

That's right, let's get into it.

Remie: 1:29

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Lockdown to Legacy. I'm your host, Remy Jones, and I have a real treat for you guys today, being that it is almost end of summer. Guess who's Bizzak? Yeah, you hear it. You know Bizzak. It's a Jay-Z song, I'm sorry.

DJ: 1:49

Guess who's Bizzak You're going to the left here.

Remie: 1:54

Still smell the crack on my clothes. What? Yeah, that's why I started mumbling, but you want to hear it. Whatever, oh, no, anyway, yes, the lovely, the beautiful, the talented and soon to be a doctor, DJ is back with us.

DJ: 2:12

I'm not that soon out there. It's close and I'm not close yet. I mean it's not 10 years away. About halfway there.

Remie: 2:20

Define halfway how many years left. Two Guess who's almost a doctor.

DJ: 2:27

That's two, feels significant.

Remie: 2:30

That's because you're doing the work. You're going to look back and you're like damn two years flu. Trust me, I know about looking forward to time as far as the grind.

DJ: 2:41

Okay, fair enough, but you know, two years is.

Remie: 2:44

I mean think about the last. What three it flew right.

DJ: 2:49

No.

Remie: 2:50

It seems like just yesterday I was like babe, quit your job, get that PhD woman, you're just ready for me to go back to work? I'm not ready for you to go back to work. I'm just ready for you to not be a student anymore. Like look, babe, I can't tonight. You just go to bed and I'll be there and see you tomorrow, like all right, damn all right.

DJ: 3:14

Got stuff to do.

Remie: 3:15

Wake up the next day. Hey babe, how you doing. Nope, got to go right, got to read, got to read 10 books in one day Should be multitasking, reading two books at one time. I hear one book playing an audio book format while she's reading another one. That's the grind man. That's the grind right there.

DJ: 3:36

I'm putting out all my secrets. I'm sorry. My goodness, that's what you would say.

Remie: 3:41

It is nice to have you back, my goodness, I do say goodness, but I'm glad to have you back.

DJ: 3:48

I missed you so much. Thanks for having me.

Remie: 3:51

Thanks for having you. This is your baby too, thanks for I've been waiting for you to come back for that birthday cake and cigarette run.

DJ: 4:00

I'm back, I'm back, I'm back, and today we are going to talk about an episode. I don't know, I just thought of it. Maybe it's because you did something and then I was like that might be an episode.

Remie: 4:13

I actually think this was an episode that we had on the list to do and we didn't get to it yet because of the summer legacy series. So we're back to the list of subjects and topics that we wanted to get to. With that being said, I would like to give some foreshadowing. There we go. So I've been working on this website and I've made a lot of milestones and then I decided like that's not what I want. I even had it published and everything, and then I was like unpublished.

Remie: 4:55

But I got some more ideas. One of them is that I want to give you guys a list of a schedule saying what episodes are coming up and what dates. I feel like that would be really good for our listeners and it'll be really good for us. So instead of just being like surprise, it's Friday, guess what the topic is today, we're going to be like hey, this Friday is this topic and next Friday is this topic, and we'll have a list of dates and stuff, who the guests might be or if it's just me and DJ. You know what topics we'll be discussing.

DJ: 5:35

Sorry, yeah, and expect a summer legacy series recap episode that will be coming up here in a couple of weeks. Of course, next week is the first week of the month. The warn will be back with some more wisdom for us and just really great conversation. It's always great when he can call in and offer some of those thoughts as a co-host of this podcast, so we're really grateful for him and his time.

Remie: 6:04

Yeah, and remember, the episode with Warren is no longer a mini. You know, we've decided to increase that to a full episode because, at the behest of our listeners, More Warn.

Remie: 6:17

Yeah, I've heard everybody's been yelling at me and I've heard the chant in the crowds and I'm like, oh, is this what you want? So that's what it is, he's agreed to it, he's happy about it. And I'm once again, like you know, for all you people that were out there like, hey, we want more Warren. You know, please write in, leave those, you know, reviews, I guess I don't know. So just write in, tell us what you think about him so I can share that with him, because maybe like a testimonial I don't know what you would call it, but just just yeah.

DJ: 6:52

positive words for Warren.

Remie: 6:54

Yeah, positive words, all right. So, with all that being said, I don't think we'll have any more updates or anything.

DJ: 7:03

I don't think so either.

Remie: 7:04

You know. Let's get to the subject at hand.

DJ: 7:08

So today we wanted to talk about what I have called prison scars and you might have heard some alluding to this on episodes that Remy and I have done together where we're talking about the effects or experiences suffered during incarceration and how that translates to reentry, and you've heard that a little bit with the summer legacy series guests too. There have been some overlap in that, and as I was listening, I got to be a listener this summer, which was fun. So as I was listening to those episodes in my car and taking a break from riding or going on a run, I heard this recurring pattern of like it was really hard for me to come home, and so I think that it inspired me to come back and revisit this episode. So we're going to talk about that today.

Remie: 7:59

Yeah.

DJ: 8:00

So what you would find online as a diagnosis, I guess, if you want to get really formal about it, is post incarceration syndrome.

DJ: 8:11

They call that PICS, and so it's kind of this collaboration, I guess, conglomeration of several different kinds of disorders. I feel bad calling it a disorder, but I guess it is that severe for some folks when you can see different clusters of symptoms like institutionalized personality traits, post-traumatic stress syndrome that's one we're very common, that's very well known. A lot of people know about PTSD, antisocial personality traits, which is ASPT Everything's an acronym, right Social sensory deprivation syndrome and substance abuse disorders, and so there are several symptoms associated with each of these five subcategories. But really what this is showing us when we think about PICS is that these things can overlap and become one thing which we're seeing in this specific population of post-incarcerated folks, which I thought was really interesting, because I think we know that mental health disproportionately affects formerly incarcerated people. But to put a name to what people experience in reentry and the difficulties that people experience on a continuum some people don't have any at all, or just a couple. Some people it's really really severe. So putting a name to that is really important.

Remie: 9:49

Yeah, and I do recall many times, especially with people on the episode and with other friends of mine that were incarcerated, and the common thing that, well, the most common thing that I think most of them said was coming home.

Remie: 10:09

They had a whole lot of anxiety, especially when it came to being in large crowds, and I mean, that's something that I could relate to myself. I didn't know whether it was just because I'm kind of a loner or, if you know, it was actually a thing stemming from being incarcerated. But my lovely wife here, being the clinician that she is, was able to shed some insight and let me point out some things that weren't like glaring, you know, but me, they are there and they are noticeable. So myself, when I came home, I always sat with my back to the wall and where I could see the entrance whenever I was in a place with a lot of people. And so she was like, well, you know, when she said she wanted to talk about prison scars, I was like I think I got any of those, you know it is a fiddle.

Remie: 11:11

Yeah, I'm doing pretty good.

DJ: 11:12

You are.

Remie: 11:13

You know, doing pretty good doesn't mean that there's not still challenges that I overcome every day, right? So I would say that was probably the biggest one. Another one is that I am always the security minded person in our house. You know, I'm the one who's always like make sure you lock the doors before I go to sleep. I go around, lock all the doors, all the windows. Whenever I go out in my backyard, I come and lock my front door like just whatever. You know. Which is funny, though, because when I was in prison, I never locked my door, I never locked my locker box.

Remie: 11:52

You know, because it's kind of a statement in prison. And it's kind of a statement like you go in there and take my shit if you want to, but you're going to take whatever come with it. You know, that was my little saying like you take whatever you want out of there, but you got to take what come with it. So when I come knocking on your door, I tell them yo, take this work, let's go ahead, put the gloves on, like, and we're going to fight every day Until I get my stuff back. That was my motto, but I didn't think it came home with me. Yeah, yeah, um, and you know, for me I would say that that's relatively uh mild manifestation of a prison scar. Um, I do know some people who had it very severe, like you know, even on like the last episode with, uh, delano Savage, where he said like going to Walmart was just too much. You know, it was like so overwhelming yeah.

DJ: 12:49

I thought about Jeremy too, um, if you recall, all the way back to the beginning of our summer legacy series, jeremy was our first guest, um, and he talked about sleeping in his bathroom. Uh, for a while after coming home, because a bedroom felt too big, it was too overwhelming and that space was too large and it caused really deep rooted anxiety for him. Um, and that resonated so much with me because I was like, wow, if space can feel big, imagine what human interactions are like especially. I mean, there is just no. Of course there's halfway housing and transition housing that incarcerated folks can have when coming home, but not everybody gets that opportunity and so, depending on how you come home, it's kind of just like you're incarcerated and then you're not and there's no transition planning.

DJ: 13:47

There's no thinking about what prison scars you may have. There's no, I guess, test environment where you get to slowly acclimate. It's just you're not a part of society and all of a sudden you are and I. That's a little, I don't know. It blows my mind a little bit that we don't have better systems in place to help folks. Um, you know, you talked about um sitting with your back to the wall. I think it was a little bit more than that at the beginning. Um, after I had met you, like when we would go to dinner or things like that, it wasn't just that you had to have your back to the wall and whatever that environment was, but it was like your head was on a swivel. I mean, my head still was always on a swivel.

Remie: 14:33

And that's actually, the first thing that I noticed was um, I have a hard time holding eye contact in a conversation because I'm always looking around me, and the reason why that is the first thing that came that I noticed was because, you know, I'm sitting here with my wife or, you know, previous to my wife, you know, I had a girlfriend. I'm sitting there trying to talk to them and in my mind it was kind of like damn, I hope she don't think I'm checking out all these other girls when I'm talking to her, because every time somebody walked by I'm like I'm looking, you know, my head's turning, my eyes are always darting everywhere and it wasn't like kind of like a nervous thing, it was just kind of like I always got to be aware, I got to see like who's where in the room and, uh, you know, that's, that's deep, that's real deep. There were some others too.

DJ: 15:28

Do you want to talk about any of your, your others?

Remie: 15:31

Sure, lay it out there. No, here are my dirty laundry.

DJ: 15:35

Uh, I think about um. We've talked about this before on this podcast, but there was um I don't want to call it an issue, but like we had to work through our communication as a couple and once things became serious, uh, about like expectations of how you show up for your partner, um, because things that I would consider um, just general normal couple activity, like hey, let me know when you're on your way home, or hey, you know, let me know how long you're gonna be out, or those kinds of things kind of felt to you as if you had to check in with somebody, which is what you had to do every move you made for 10 years. So there was like an authoritative component there which is justifiable, but we had to work through it, yeah.

Remie: 16:30

Yeah, so my Prison scar in that regard is that I Always felt suspicious of people you know, which is why I always had to know where everybody was in the room, which is why, so, checking in as far as, like you know, my wife was like, hey, just share your location, and I was like, no, that sounds like some police shit. What we need to know you know where I'm at every day, every time, like like always, like no, and I felt like that was like Possessing me you know, like I'm not a possession.

Remie: 17:14

You don't need to know where I'm at on time. I don't need to explain myself when I leave here and go here. You know, if I stop at the gas station on the way home from work, I don't need to call you and tell you and stop under the gas station, you know? That's just how I thought and it is kind of from Like an authoritative type of view, like you're not my boss, you know. But at the same time it was that suspicion. It's like why do you want to know when I leave, like what are you doing? You need to know. Okay, all right, he's on his way, clean this shit up, you know.

Remie: 17:49

And so that was something I had to work over work through Not just with my wife, but with you know, life in general. It's like I don't want anybody Tracking all of my moves, like why I'm not doing anything. I literally just go home From work and then go to work in the morning, like that's my only movement. But even that, even knowing that, I was like I don't want to tell you what I'm doing. Yeah, you know. Um, so, yeah, I don't even think we work through it, man. I think I just finally was like all right.

DJ: 18:23

You don't agree.

Remie: 18:24

I'm being petty and it's probably gonna cause a relationship problem, so I need to just get over it, because my wife's not unreasonable, you know. She don't ask much of me, which I could probably say. I get away with it Doing less than I should you know, I'm honest, my wife's a superwoman.

Remie: 18:43

I got a lot she's on it and I'm kind of slow to move. I'm not even going front. So what I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna do this and she's already done it. I'm actually like why you do that, I told you. I just didn't get to it yet. She was like it's been there all day. Anyway, I'm off track, I'm off track, but really though, um, yeah, that's the two things that I kind of struggle with was Always being suspicious of other people, even people that love me, you know, and the other was always feeling as if somebody was trying to Put themselves in a position of authority over me, which I feel like you know, is that's kind of not even from prison too, that's kind of from like being in the streets, you know, being in a gang, all that stuff.

Remie: 19:40

It's like People try to Like big homie. You it's the term that we use like bro, you know my big homie. Or you know we use the term like put you under the wing, or it's something like you know, like you can't Do that, because I'm not that person. Like go do that with them young dudes, them little dudes, you know, say what a big homie is though, for.

Remie: 20:03

It's pretty self-explanatory? I don't think so. I think you should?

DJ: 20:05

I think you should break out your terminology.

Remie: 20:07

Okay, so um a big homie you know the equivalent of that would be like In responsible society. The big homie would be like a mentor, you know, um, it's the person who, I mean it could be a mentor, or it could be straight up a boss, you know, a senior Supervisor, something like that. Um, so in the gang it's like the big homies are, you know, the higher ups in the gang, or, um, it might even be the person who bought you into the gang and kind of mentored you into that lifestyle. Um, it's pretty much like If they say something like do it, you know, if they tell you do something, that's what you do. If they say, you know we going to do x, y and z and you coming along and you're going to go do something, and you coming along and you going to watch the door or you going to drive the car, like that's your role, you know, because the big homie said so. But, um, yeah, I was like you know you can't, little homie me, I'm like what?

DJ: 21:08

I am big homie Okay.

Remie: 21:12

Everybody know that I got the last say in this house. I break all ties.

DJ: 21:19

I think the cat's probably the biggest homie in the house. I'm not gonna comment on that.

DJ: 21:27

No, that's, that's gonna start a fight, but um, yeah, and so I think that there are just lots of examples that people can go through and there are a lot of, you know, different severities. I think about, um, lights. We talked about lights too towards the beginning of um, our relationship, and you, you didn't like lights that didn't turn off. That was a big one. For a while. I don't think that's so much the case Anymore. Like you can sleep in an environment, if I'm working still and I have my light on, you're pretty content. But um, at the beginning, it was like from prison.

DJ: 22:07

It was like you needed lights that turned out, because lights didn't turn out in prison.

Remie: 22:12

So, um, in prison, of course, like being able to work while you're in the room. That comes from being like in a dorm environment. You know, once you get to a lower security level, um, you're basically just one person on a bunk bed in a room full of 200 other bunk beds, you know so you never get a moment where it's quiet and everybody's asleep and you're gonna have some peace in that environment. You're right, the lights never turn off in the dorm For security reasons. They dim but they don't turn off, you know. So I would sleep with like an eye blind, you know, or homemade eye blind. You'll pull my hat down over my eyes, whatever, um, but I was also a very light sleeper, so, you know, something moved. I was like yo Lay back down, no, um. So, yeah, I mean both of them. You know the, the light situation and the being able to work with you know stuff going on.

Remie: 23:11

They were both from prison. Um, when it came to the lights, um, the biggest light thing that bothered me was when I was in solitary confinement, because that light didn't even dim. It never turned off. Um, so we would like, at night, try to get up here and stick paper to it, like, which is of course a fire hazard. But we don't, we ain't care. You know, you in there for a few days with the light not turning out and you're like man.

Remie: 23:43

Fuck that I gotta go to sleep. I can't go sleep. This damn lights on, it buzzes, it flickers, you know whatever. So but yeah, um, I don't like a lit bedroom at night. I'm at can tolerated, but I don't like it.

DJ: 24:02

You sleep pretty good, though now I don't think.

Remie: 24:05

I would not classify you as a light sleeper at this point. That's because I work too much. I'm always tired.

DJ: 24:12

Would not classify you as a light sleeper, for sure.

Remie: 24:15

I had to. I had to tell my wife this is, uh, on a side note, man. I had to tell my wife one time because, you know, dj was like Every time we go somewhere you just go sleep. I would go over to my in-laws house. I would try to have some conversation. As soon as people stopped talking to me, I was asleep. I'm serious, that's just the way it was. And it would make her so mad, like I would sometimes. Like I know I snore too. So I'm like man, I'm sitting here in a room full of people snoring. I would just get up and like go in the bed or something, go to sleep. Uh, but I had to explain like man, I get up like in the wee hours of the morning, you know, and I try to stay up until normal people bed times, you know. So you know she will wake up at like Seven with the kids maybe, and go to sleep at like what, 10, 30, 10, 30 is my bedtime.

DJ: 25:08

Hard to stop. I wake up at 2 30 am and go to sleep at 10 30, you know.

Remie: 25:14

So I'm sorry, but yes, I was tired, you know um, so we got to go to bed. We got over that. We're past but um, I don't know man. On the topic of yeah on the topic. Back to the topic post incarceration syndrome.

DJ: 25:34

Um, this is a term that was coined by Terrence Gorski in 2001, who is they are an addiction specialist, and so, while they coined this term, this is not something recognized yet by the American Psychiatric Association as of 2023, even though a lot of formerly incarcerated people identify with it. What we do know about people that have uh re-entered is about 40 percent of them have mental health disorders of varying you know capacities but formal diagnoses, and that is a really large percentage of a population. And I think what's interesting about PICS I was reading this article that was put out by GBH news I can find that they are a partner of places like NPR and this article kind of talks about Different people's experiences and coming home, and the quote that stood out to me Was from someone who did a 10 and a half year sentence and they say, quote I don't want my family looking at me like I'm broken, flawed human being Because I'm still overcoming the 10 and a half year sentence the DOC gave me. That left me more broken than when I came in. I think that that's a really impactful statement. It uh kind of highlights that Even if this isn't a formal diagnosis, it's still affecting people right, like there's still folks who are going through this.

DJ: 27:09

I also thought it was in a different article and I don't remember where I read it, but I think it was the prison policy initiative, because I was reading about mental health there and that's where I got the 40 statistic of folks coming home, but it said that there is no official number Of folks coming home that are experiencing these symptoms because it's not really tracked and re-entry, we don't really have good evaluation policies or procedures in place for folks coming home and so, because of those systems don't exist, we don't have any data that says, um, anything about how people's mental health is or how their well-being is in these transition periods. Um, we track recidivism and we know how many folks come home and go back, but beyond that, we're not exploring if that was because of mental health, if that was because of unemployment, which may have exacerbated mental health. We aren't tracking any of the why. We're just tracking how many folks go back.

Remie: 28:11

Yeah, um, I think that the system we have is heavily flawed in the fact that we focus a lot on when it comes to like, re-entry, you know, um, we focus a lot on programming for jobs, we focus a lot on programming for drug addiction Uh, there's some programming for helping get you know your kids and stuff but One of the things that they do not prepare you for, from my experience in prison, is they don't prepare you for the social aspect of going back home. Um, like, I could do a program in here with a whole bunch of other inmates and show me how to fix cars, how to cut hair, how to, you know, drive a semi truck, how to do whatever, but the culture in prison is you do not fraternize with the co's, who are the only civilians and you know, in there.

Remie: 29:11

Uh, you can't get too close, especially if it's a female. You keep, you know your distance. You're not allowed to shake hands, you're not allowed to like, sit there and crack jokes is all frowned upon, which is all the finer social parts of being in. You know, society is like you have to learn how to deal with people right. And I think it's interesting that this first tenet of the picks is institutional personality traits and the definition that they have here is institutional personality traits are caused by living in an oppressive environment that demands passive compliance to the demands of authority figures, passive acceptance of severely restricted acts of daily living, the repression of personal lifestyle preferences, the elimination of critical thinking and individual decision-making, and internalized acceptance of severe restrictions on the honest self-expression, thoughts and feelings. So if they are Constantly pushing this on you inside prison, don't think independently, you can't dress, you know, like an individual, you can't Do any type of critical thinking, because that's a security risk, right, which I always say is bullshit, because in prison I always met some of the most Smartest ingenuity people I've ever met. It's all about critical thinking, because it's all about how to get what you want within the confines of where you are Very limited resources, so that one's kind of BS, but at the same time all these other ones are very valid. You know they're telling you do not Bulk authority, do not question authority, blindly do what you're told.

Remie: 30:56

You know I think I told you guys on a previous episode that the number one rule in fraction in prison which where I was in Ohio they call it a rule 21 it is the disobeying of a direct order. Doesn't matter what the order is, doesn't matter if it's a valid order, like if they was just a walking room by everybody strip naked, like there's no, why there's no, what's going on. It's like, oh, you're not gonna strip naked in me, okay, go to the hole for this. Or a disobeying some of direct order. Being late to work is a disobeying some direct order. Like so In this environment they really try to break you down as a person, strip everything from you and Then they're like, alright, let's give them some job skills and send them home. You know and you can't tell me that that's healthy right?

DJ: 31:51

No, I agree, I Think it leads to some of these other things than to this anti-social personality trait can directly come probably from those same things that you're talking about of being oppressed, being told you can't self-express Specific thoughts, feelings, all those things if you're not taught to socialize and of course, of course there's going to be components of an anti-social personality there or a social sensory deprivation, it it's. It's kind of like because of this, this is gonna happen. It's a domino effect a little bit. Yeah, I don't think I've asked you this before, so feel free to say that you don't want to talk about it, but I know that when you came home, it was like the first or second day that you, your sister, invited you to a concert. How was that Experience for you, since it was like immediately you came home and it's a giant crowd at a concert.

Remie: 32:52

Yeah, so my very first day, like within hours coming home, and I went clothes shopping and then my sister and her husband took me to a comedy show like Mike Epps or something like that, which was pretty cool. I really didn't have Like a lot of major Scars in this regard, as far as like being out in people, you know, because to me I was like you know.

Remie: 33:22

You know I've been around people, especially like living in the dorm, having my security level lowered and coming home from a dorm environment. I was always around people and I wasn't one of those people that had to like constantly watch my back. You know, I had 10 years of reputation for lack of a better term and One thing I you know I tried to state earlier is that reputation is something that can help you in prison or hurt you in prison. The the more ironclad your reputation is. You know, then people like, oh man, he cool, don't mess with him, especially if they know that if they mess with you then it's gonna be some consequences. But if you got a reputation for just flying under the radar you know, not Bucking back when somebody mess with you Then it could be whatever it's gonna be. It's probably gonna snowball and more and more people are gonna come after you. But so I didn't have that issue. So when I came home, we went to this comedy show and I was cool Like hell, yeah, let's go out, have a drink. Yeah, the problem that I had Was that I don't know if many people know this, but when you get out of prison if you have any type of supervisor, supervision, supervision Whether that be parole, probation. In my Circumstance I had post release control PRC. You come home and you have to meet with them the next day, the next business day. So I Came home, I gotta go meet my PO the next day.

Remie: 35:05

The whole ride to this comedy show I Was in the third row of an SUV where the windows don't open and they was hot boxing this motherfucker I'm talking about. Like three people in the car had their own wheat and they was just going. Everybody was kicking it and I'm in the back just feeling like light headed in shit and I'm like they got me fucked up, man, like they really just they don't understand man. And and, um, my, my, it was somebody else in the car that had just got out to. They had did seven years, I had did ten years and they was over there being quiet too.

Remie: 35:45

And Finally, and it's funny because they say here in this anti-social personality trait that one of the characteristics are passive aggressiveness. So I was making some passive aggressive comments and stuff, hoping that they would get it and nobody got it and they all of a sudden I just blew up and I just started yelling at people and I was like yo pull the fucking car over and Everybody was like whoa, what happened? Like dude tripping. And I was like me, I got me fucked up. I got to go see my PO tomorrow. You're just hot boxing the car like that, shit don't affect me, you know.

Remie: 36:21

And the other dude, he was just like man, they don't get it, bro, like they don't understand and and so like he was feeling the same thing I was feeling he just didn't say anything. And I didn't say anything, of course, until I had this big explosion of emotion and. But then the rest of the ride, I kind of feel bad because it was like People really were uncomfortable around me. After that, you know, like right, damn, I don't know if this nigga is stable or not, you know. But um, the comedy show was a good time. I really I tried really really hard to Catch certain stuff before I came home Like I can't respire like this. I can't, you know, think like that. But I know that that's not always the case. Especially, a lot of people in prison will have self-awareness, you know, and I can say that for myself. Like you know, when you be like she was fighting with you. I was like what?

Remie: 37:27

I don't be knowing, I don't, I'm not good at like gauging that type of stuff, because all I look for in Interactions with people is aggression and deceit.

DJ: 37:39

Yeah.

Remie: 37:42

I love that. That was a ramble.

DJ: 37:44

No, I think that's important.

DJ: 37:47

You know, I was thinking back to this article from GBH that we were talking about, and the same individual that I pulled the quote from a minute ago said two things that I think are relevant to what it is you're talking about, which is he says I feel like that's the most extreme version of post-incarceration syndrome, where you want to revert back.

DJ: 38:08

That's how scared you are that the world is going to hurt or traumatize you further because he's talking about a blow-up that he had, but it also then incites the fear of I don't want to go back, right, and so he's. Whatever that response is going to be, so it doesn't cause that. That's what he's going to do, and that made me think of you talking about pulling the car over. But he also talks about later that it's hard to transition home because you're doing so most often with people who don't understand. He says we're leaning on each other because your family doesn't understand what it's like to be incarcerated. Your friends don't understand what it's like to be incarcerated. The only people that you have that get it are those who have got it.

Remie: 38:52

Right and which is I don't know. It's kind of like a setup. If the only people you can go to that relate are people that have been in there and everybody's not doing the right thing after prison, then basically it's forcing you to go and be around people who may not be quality peers, not on the right track, which kind of raises your chances of recidivism. And personally I've had friends call me for support or advice and they're like man. My anxiety's so bad that I just want to drink, I just want to smoke, I just want to whatever they feel like. When they walk into a room, you know they're covering in tattoos and they're like man.

Remie: 39:40

I feel like everybody's looking at me, everybody's judging me, you know, and that kind of hurt man, because I don't, I don't have a lot of visible tattoos, but for somebody to say that to me and I'm like damn, like I don't know how I can help them with that. I don't know how I can help change that mindset. Like, except for you know me, I'm pretty much a fuck it no nonsense person, you know. So I mean, I say it a lot where I'd be like bro, you got to have that same fucking mentality that you had in the streets. You know you didn't care what people thought of you then that's the reason why you put the tattoos on the first place, so you kind of just I mean it sounds like horrible advice is very insensitive, but it's like you got to get over that.

Remie: 40:31

As I'm not a clinician, so I don't know how to responsibly help anybody through that and I just say, like you know, focus on what you got going on, focus on the reason why you're in the room, focus on you know, whatever it is, work your kids, your family like focus on that. And the people that are not in that box, like fuck them. Just, they're there to give you an opportunity, you know, and if they got one for you, great, if they don't fuck them. But it's just, that's how I am. I'm sorry.

DJ: 41:06

I think you were fortunate that when you came home you were able to find positive role models. I think there were some negative folks too, but you didn't have any hesitations about cutting those folks out of your life and I think that that made a really big difference. But you did have people who had gone through this experience and then made something of themselves. They're folks who you brought on the Summer Legacy Series, that were out there doing things before you came home and had the opportunity to follow kind of in that same pathway. And that helps because, as we know, not everybody has that.

DJ: 41:44

That's why we did the Summer Legacy Series is the incarceration component is important, so is the reentry, and so is the legacy, so is the aftermath. So highlighting those stories was really crucial to exactly what we're talking about here is all of these things can exist, but then in the context of having positive relationships and having people who have gone before you to help you kind of see a pathway forward, just makes that. I mean, it's not an easy walk, no matter how you slice it, but it makes it a little more bearable to know somebody else has done it and so you can do it too. There's a representation, I guess, in that.

Remie: 42:28

One thing I will say is that, being that prison tries to strip you down and break you down so much it kind of gives you that mindset that I'm not worthy of being in the presence of certain people because it kind of makes you feel like you're in a lower class. If you were not allowed to talk to COs or program managers or case managers or women, then when you're in their presence you feel uncomfortable, right. And if you can't talk to a case manager or a program manager or the warden or anybody like a person, then when you get out in society it's like you want to, even if you want to do something positive. And I'm saying this because I kind of. This is one thing that I kind of had an issue with. I'm going to say I struggled with it, but I definitely had an issue with it, and that was when I got in the room, when I started trying to start a business, trying to do podcasts and stuff, trying to do mentoring, and I had called upon people to help me. I felt like I wasn't qualified to be in a room with these people.

Remie: 43:47

I'm just a nigga from prison and at one time I was talking to people with PhDs, with master's degrees with plenty of experience, has clinicians. I know, rob, he's out there rubbing elbows with politicians and all this other stuff. So if you can't even talk to a CEO or a program manager, it was really hard to talk to somebody that's a politician, or politicians are like public figures. They're what we would like to think are staples in society. They're very by the book good doing people. And if I am just a nigga from prison, it's like I've been institutionalized to not rub elbows with those people. I'm not supposed to talk to those people, so how do I then go and partner with those people? Which is why I say prison doesn't prepare you for the social aspect.

DJ: 44:50

Right yeah.

Remie: 44:52

And I'm not going on. I still feel like that. Sometimes I got some people that I probably should reach out to more and pick their brains more. As far as how I can take this further and there's some unknown invisible force that will keep me from picking up the phone and calling or sending the text message, I recognize that it's very real. There are a lot of times that I can overcome it, but I'm not going to lie man. I could probably be a lot further along with this if I was more proactive.

DJ: 45:28

But look at where you are.

Remie: 45:29

Yeah, that's why I got to tell myself I've come a long way. Look at the progress, look at the accomplishments, and this is kind of an expertise, I guess a valid experience that justifies me being in the room with these people, because I know a lot of stuff and I've experienced a lot of stuff that they can't relate to and they have no expertise in, no matter what they studied in a book.

DJ: 45:58

Yeah.

Remie: 45:59

It will never prepare them for being in this environment for prolonged periods.

DJ: 46:04

Yeah, it's one thing for an addiction specialist to coin a term trying to get it recognized and in and the American Psychiatric Association kind of regard. It's different for those who actually have gone through it and can speak to those traits and those symptoms and those experiences. That's completely different and those experiences are valid. And I think what's very cool about this podcast is it brings awareness to these things. One of the things we get questions on sometimes is what do I as an individual, how can I help? What can I do? We bring awareness to these things, but what's the practical next step?

DJ: 46:55

I would say in general it's really hard to know what other people are going through. I don't think that formerly incarcerated folks all wear t-shirts that let us know or anything like that. So in general you just have to treat everybody with the same respect and regard and kindness, because you don't know the experiences that they're going through or how hard it was for them to come to Walmart today or how difficult it is to sit in a restaurant and experience those things. Just exercise that universal best practice and exercise precaution with everybody and kind of put that at the forefront of you don't know anybody's lived experiences. If you assume that mindset, then it's much more of a strength in maybe moving somebody along a continuum. You didn't even know that they were on.

Remie: 47:50

Yeah for sure. So real quick. I know we're probably getting to the end of this episode, but another one of the tenants of this whole PICS was social sensory deprivation syndrome. Some of the things listed in here are symptoms, are, once again, things that now that I'm seeing in on paper or in an article I can kind of recognize. The symptoms include severe chronic headaches, developmental regression, impaired impulse control, dissociation, inability to concentrate which is one of my big things Repress rage, inability to control primitive drives and instincts and inability to plan beyond the moment, inability to anticipate logical consequences of behavior out of control, obsessive thinking and borderline personality traits.

Remie: 48:51

I guess I didn't want to talk about this just because it relates to me in some regards, but I wanted to talk about it because we talked about social aspects of coming home from prison and when you come out from prison you really need relationships, supportive relationships, and one of the things about me which I've recognized is a huge strength but also a huge disadvantage in some regards, is that I have this weird ability to cut people off, which you just mentioned. When I came home I was like yo, these people are people that I can't hang with, because on these people have been people in my life, my whole life, you know, like we were like best friends, shared birthdays, you know we're in the game together, whatever it was, but I felt like they're not positive influences on my life, so I just cut them off, never reached out, never went around. And then even people that I had in my life you know I mentioned that I had some friends that got in trouble and I was like yo listen, I tried to give advice and you keep going down the wrong road, like I got shit to lose. I just cut them off. It made me feel bad. It made me feel like a bad friend.

Remie: 50:10

But I feel like there's two types of people that come home when it comes to relationships and this kind of touches on it is they have out of control, obsessive thinking. So when it comes to relationships, these are the people who cannot accept a breakup or who cannot accept how they have this feeling of somebody treating them badly Passive, aggressive. You know they feel like somebody's being passive, aggressive. They take something that was kind of minor to another level and they respond overtly aggressive, you know. And then there's people like me that's like what's your shit? You don't want to be me, get the fuck away bye. So, even though out of those two, at face value you would say, oh man, that's pretty good, that's a huge advantage that you can just cut somebody off At the same time, I am always willing to cut somebody off.

Remie: 51:10

So I have to stop myself. Like you know, this shit ain't that deep. I should probably reevaluate this Because before I know it, without thinking, I just like, oh, I ain't talked to them in like six months, why, I'm sure I don't know. And I've seen people struggle with this, especially post incarceration where, like they're kind of, you know, borderline stalking, their, you know, girlfriend, boyfriend. They can't accept, you know, that the relationship deteriorated or whatever. They feel possessive of their relationships, no matter what type of relationship, whether it's a friend, a romantic relationship, a job, like you know, I don't know. But anyway, that obsessive thinking you know I obsess over certain stuff. Well, you were here, not in your head, for it.

DJ: 52:09

I was agreeing with you.

Remie: 52:13

I was just agreeing. We'll talk about it later.

DJ: 52:17

They can't hear my head nodding. But you just doubted that, I was just in agreement.

Remie: 52:24

But yeah, no, that's. It's really man. It's really crazy how, like you just said, you don't know what people are going through and when you know. I challenge our listeners that when you see somebody exhibiting this type of behavior, don't just respond and say they're an asshole. You know like there's a reason why this is the way it is and you know they haven't been able to work through it yet. They probably don't even know that it is what it is or why it is what it is. But if you can recognize that and if you can approach them in a way, that would be okay and be like yo, I see this and I think there are some ways you can get help for it. You know that would be great, especially if you're somebody that they trust.

DJ: 53:19

Can I pull another one out of that number four?

DJ: 53:21

that social sensory one, two.

DJ: 53:24

Let's see here it's the inability to plan beyond the moment.

DJ: 53:31

That one stood out to me and again, I don't want to out all your stuff, you don't want to talk about it, but I know that memory is hard for you and we have talked about that.

DJ: 53:44

I think we've talked about it on this podcast before, about how time, while you do your best to track it in prison, you're trying to mark the months. So you know, like you talked about how you mark things by the new sports season. That's how we know what time of the year it is Like football starting, it must be fall and those kinds of pieces and I think that that also can inhibit somebody who's coming home, because if your memory isn't really great and you're not really great at tracking time, stack that up against trying to hold a job or like what times you have to work. Those things feel really big and overwhelming. And I think you've gotten really, really great at utilizing your calendar and being better about tracking time and remembering things, like you've put systems in place that have countered that. But I know at the beginning it was a real challenge for you, but then it just made you frustrated with yourself.

Remie: 54:44

Yeah, yeah, I do get very frustrated at myself, especially my memory, and work is the only thing that I can track well. To be honest, that's the only thing that I can track well, and so I guess I'm being a little vulnerable here. But when it comes to tracking anything beyond this week or even, I guess, really beyond today, then I get kind of lost. If I don't set anything up to remind me, then it's not gonna happen. So if we have a conversation I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, call me on Tuesday, you better believe that if I don't put that shit on the calendar it's not gonna happen. I'm so sorry in advance, you know, but the reason why that is is because I tried really hard for the sake of my emotions and the sake of my mental stability of having to do a long sentence.

Remie: 55:48

I tried very hard to disassociate myself with time. At a level three prison there's really no need for time management Like you can't go anywhere, you know there's no programs, there's no places to be Like, you're just doing time. So when I was in level three, I got rid of all calendars that I had. I stopped wearing a wrist watch. I had a little sheet of paper that had everybody's birthday written down on it and I would just look at it every couple of months. So if I missed your birthday, I'm writing you something like hey, what's up? Man? I'm sorry I missed your birthday, but this is that. And if your birthday's coming up, I'm like hey, what's up? Man? You know, I know your birthday's coming up in X and Y. It's never on your birthday. That shit's not gonna happen. So you know.

Remie: 56:37

Now I'm like shh, be honest man, what was it? Two weeks ago I called my daughter in here like hey, when's your birthday? And I heard her going down the hallway like he doesn't even know my birthday and I felt so bad, man. I felt so bad and I was like man, this is kind of. I don't know if I'm gonna throw somebody else into this, but growing up my dad never remembered my birthday and I was like man, this dude's a fucking asshole. It was his first son, his oldest son. He doesn't even know my birthday. But now that I think about it, my dad had a, I think, 23 years military career in which he was on nuclear subs.

DJ: 57:23

In the ocean with no time management system.

Remie: 57:26

You're on a steel tube miles under the ocean and you're gone for nine months, like pretty sure. I mean. Of course, once again, when it comes to work, it's easy to track, cause you're on the military, you always gotta be on time, which is IE early, and you always got somewhere to be, but it's a very isolated environment which is the same as prison. So yeah, man, I'm terrible.

DJ: 57:53

No, you're not. I think you've gotten so much better at. Doing that like you are really good about. We have. We've talked about this. We have whiteboards all over our bedroom For all kinds of things. We have goal tracking whiteboards, we have to-do list whiteboards, we have what's coming up next week, the whiteboards, but we have a monthly whiteboard, like we have we share calendar Invites on the phone.

DJ: 58:19

Yeah we have so many systems in place and a lot of that was your idea, but it helps you to Visually see the things you have to do immediately, the things that are you need to do in a week and the things that you need to Do in a month. You have put those things in place for school. You've got a really great Excel document to like lay out dates and timelines made by DJ. I was giving you credit, babe.

Remie: 58:45

No, I don't need no undue credit man.

DJ: 58:47

I know where my good support systems come from but I you've worked really, really hard at that and I think that you get so frustrated with yourself but you don't see how far that you've come in terms of Looking ahead and seeing ahead and remembering things. I mean, you were the one that told me like, hey, we've got a you know dating anniversary coming up and I know you know a few months and I'm like, oh yeah, so like those kinds of things are are great, and I, you know, I look at this list and I see all these traits and these Symptoms and these, whatever you want to associate with this, and while you had experiences with it, like, look at the gap between Then and now I mean, five years has passed and I think you've made Really tremendous strides in a lot of these areas, and I think what's beneficial about this episode is it kind of brings some normalcy To other people who might be experiencing it, but it also brings some awareness to folks who had no idea.

Remie: 59:47

Yeah, for sure, I do Recognize my improvements, my achievements.

DJ: 59:54

I think you're great.

Remie: 59:55

I wouldn't say great, I would say better, I'm great, I'm better. But I mean there's there's a lot of stuff that I'm still trying to learn. I mean, like I just said, I'm trying to put together this list of episodes coming out in the future. I'm Try to put those on the calendar. I'm really, really trying to do better with the calendar. Just, you know, all around just noticing being self-aware of when I could do better, and then going to people because you know I love a good mentor I'm like, hey, debbie, you're the best person I know when it comes to time management. Can you give me some tips? And guess what? Debbie's like Yo, I make this Excel doc. This is what works for me. Get your schedule, we're gonna put some information in. And bam and I was like yo, this is genius.

Remie: 1:00:47

So simple, genius happy to help guess who is my backbone? This one here, man, this is my Atlas, right here she's oh my goodness, she's amazing, and I'm gonna shout that out every turn I get. I appreciate, but I guess that's the the end. I know you got something. Before we wrap it up, I do?

DJ: 1:01:07

I just want to. You know I want to. I want to pull the microscope out, like while we talked about you, while we talked About some of our guests this summer, like this is a bigger, bigger issue than just the few individuals were shouting out on this episode and talking about your first-hand experiences. Like this is happening for a lot Of folks coming home, and we just don't know how many. But we know that reentry typically looks like you're incarcerated one day and you're not the next and there's not a lot of support there other than checking in with maybe your post release control, you know, probation officer, whomever, and that's not. That's not enough. So I just wanted to end by saying there are folks who are trying to create some change around this, folks in Massachusetts.

DJ: 1:01:54

The House of Representatives had a few folks in Massachusetts who put forward some legislation to try to incorporate PICS into their planning for post-incarceration, and so the same thing is happening in California. They have asked the National Institute of Mental Health to research PICS, to kind of help them put together a proposal for legislation. New York Senate is considering legislation that would mandate mental health treatment for post-traumatic prison disorder is what they called it in that legislation proposal and the NAACP also passed a resolution in 2019 supporting the provision of trauma-informed services to incarcerated and formerly incarcerated people to address post-traumatic prison condition. So all of these terminologies kind of equal the same thing that Folks are doing what they can to support mental health and support what we now know is more significant than just prison scars but can actually be classified as a Disorder. So just know that there are folks out there doing the work. We will link all of those things in our show notes. But and this is a movement and this podcast is just One place within that movement- yeah.

DJ: 1:03:16

That's all I had. How about you?

Remie: 1:03:19

Oh, now I'm good, I all I do, you know, all I have is that you know, call to action. Like I said before, we kind of gave you a lot of information here, a lot of things to recognize, and you know, your loved ones or people in your life who may have Done some time. And if you do recognize any of these, please be patient Because it can be ten years later and folks still have some of these traits.

DJ: 1:03:46

Yeah, you shouldn't say like well, that was a decade ago and it really it doesn't matter how much time they did.

Remie: 1:03:52

Yeah, you might say, oh well, he only did three years. But I Actually had to correct a friend one time where they were like, ah man, he ain't got no excuse. You know he knew nearly as much time as you. You know he did three years and I was like, listen, man, three months is enough time to lose everything you love. Like you don't have to go to prison, a level three fight for your life, anything like that. Like you can never leave the county jail and experience so much trauma that it really changes everything about you Because, like I said, in three months you could lose your significant other.

Remie: 1:04:32

Somebody could die your parents could die your Some capital, your children. You could lose them to the system, like your job, your stability, your apartment, your car, everything that you've worked hard for you could lose in three months. So never try to judge that person by all. They didn't do a lot of time or, you know, think that what they're exhibiting in their personality traits is just them being an asshole, you know, because maybe they recognize it and maybe they don't. So, just you know, be patient, be supportive. I just made a Facebook post like, just show compassion, you know. So that's it for me, that's my call to action.

DJ: 1:05:15

I love it.

Remie: 1:05:17

Thank you everyone for tuning in again, once again so happy to have the beautiful, the talented, the exceptionally smart and rare dream of DJ back with us. I will like that everybody please give a pause. The crowd goes crazy. I'm too poor to have one of those sound effects machines.

DJ: 1:05:45

What's the audio version of clip art?

Remie: 1:05:47

All right, um, thanks again everybody. Uh, I guess that's it we're out Bye peace.

DJ: 1:06:02

The lockdown to legacy podcast is proud to be a part of the bus sprout podcast community network. Lockdown to legacy is recorded at co-hatch in their lovely audiophile room. Thanks for your scholarship. Audio engineering is done by our very own remy jones. You can reach us with any feedback, questions, comments or share the love by emailing stories at lockdown, the number two legacycom, stories at lockdown to legacycom. You can reach out there too for a free sticker, and you can find us on instagram and twitter with the handle at lockdown to legacy and on facebook at the lockdown to legacy podcast. Thanks for listening.