The Silent Protest: A Deep Dive into Stillwater's Inhumane Conditions

Uncover the gritty realities of the Stillwater Correctional Facility in Minnesota as your hosts, Remie and Debbie Jones, shine a spotlight on the inhumane conditions and escalating tensions that have led to the recent and ongoing peaceful prison and community protest. Imagine being confined to a cell with dangerous temperatures, drinking poor quality water, and living with the constant fear of violence due to severe understaffing. This facility, operational since 1851, is more than just a prison; it's a distressing reflection of systemic issues that have been ignored for far too long, culminating in a crisis that can no longer be dismissed.

Journey with us as we hear from the families left in the dark, unsure of their loved ones' wellbeing, and amplify their unheard voices. With powerful insights from those on the front lines,  we peel back layers of bureaucracy to expose the real impact of this crisis on inmates, DOC officers, and the community. The "resolution" to the protest was far from adequate. Two people were unjustly branded as 'ringleaders' and sent to the 'hole.' The harsh truth is that the situation is far from resolved. So, we invite you, our listeners, to join the call to action. Reach out to the commissioner of corrections. Stay informed. Remember, these are real people enduring extreme conditions. Their stories must not be silenced.

Feeling called to act? You can reach Commissioner of Corrections, Paul Schnell, at Paul.Schnell@state.mn.us or at 651-755-1520 to voice concerns.

Links to the articles shared as part of today's episode:
-https://mn.gov/doc/facilities/stillwater/
-https://www.mprnews.org/story/2023/09/05/stillwater-prison-remains-in-lockdown-amid-protests-of-living-conditions
-https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/stillwater-prison-former-corrections-officer-speaks-out/
-https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/sep/04/minnesota-prison-resolves-dispute-with-100-inmates-refusing-to-return-to-cells
-https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/section-of-stillwater-prison

Transcript

Remie Jones: 0:19

Welcome to Lockdown the Legacy stories from the inside out. I'm your host, remy Jones.

Debbie Jones: 0:25

And I'm co-host Debbie Jones. We are a husband and wife team here to bring you the real life stories, experiences and questions around the American criminal justice system. We do advise discretion with this podcast. I think we should put that out there first and foremost. We are going to talk about experiences that happen inside the prison system, outside of prison systems. We will use language that might be offensive, but we intend to keep it real, and if that's not for you, we totally understand, but please do what's best for your listening ears.

Remie Jones: 0:56

Oh, we're about to keep it real, son. Our goal of this podcast is to share the inside realities of the American prison and criminal justice system, from pre-charges all the way to post-release, from the voices of those who've experienced it firsthand, including me.

Debbie Jones: 1:12

That's right, let's get into it.

Remie Jones: 1:30

Hey everybody, Welcome to another episode of Lockdown to Legacy. I am your host, Remy Jones.

Debbie Jones: 1:37

And I am co-host Debbie Jones.

Remie Jones: 1:39

And together we are the Dynamic Duo. Welcome back, DJ.

Remie Jones: 1:44

Thanks, I'm sick I know I'm sorry, so welcome back everybody. This is not a regularly scheduled episode. Little impromptu, that's how we've been doing it lately. Things are chaotic, but notice something in the news that caught our attention and wanted to talk about it, and that is there is a prison riot, a peaceful prison riot going on as we speak in Minnesota in the Stillwater Correctional Facility. Yes, now, like I said, it's peaceful, but it is causing some concern by doing exactly what protests are supposed to do, and that is bringing awareness to certain conditions, and in this case it is the living conditions inside the prison. Inmates and family members alike, and also even some staff members, have complained about the living conditions, and one of them being the quality of water that inmates receive in their cells. It is not fit for drinking. In some instances they even said it comes out looking like coffee, which is gross, and the others are even self-admitted by the warranted that the ventilation system, the AC, is inadequate. So they said that there were temperatures reported over 100 degrees in there, and that is insane.

Debbie Jones: 3:22

This. I think all of the issues were exacerbated by the fact that there's no staff. You know, I was going to just talk about the facility itself for a second, to kind of contextualize the issues. The facility has been there since 1851 when Minnesota was an estate. It was a territorial location and it has always had serious overcrowding issues. There are a number of legislative changes that have happened over the time since 1851 to present about how to continue to house inmates there. It at one time was a co what am I trying to say?

Remie Jones: 4:09

Co-ed.

Debbie Jones: 4:10

Yes, thank you Facility, but then it changed after 1920 when the state had a women's reformatory. So it's always had some issues in terms of overcrowding and and all of those things. But I think what's important about this issue is that these concerns didn't happen overnight. They've been going on a really long time. It's just now incarcerated individuals are trying to push back on that. So there are about the facility houses the numbers I found were 1200 and then somebody else said 1400, so it's, you know, variable, I guess, in terms of its size. But the I wouldn't call it a riot the Peaceful protest, sure the strike I don't know, can you strike a condition if you're not like paid?

Remie Jones: 5:10

Well, so I will call it peaceful protest, because the majority of it is being done outside of the prison. Yeah there are about 100 inmates who decided to peacefully protest by Doing what we call refused to lock, which is the East unit, by the way.

Remie Jones: 5:29

Yeah, about a hundred inmates incarcerated people and refusing to lock is basically like the end of the day, when everybody has to get locked in their cells. You just refuse, you refuse to go to your cell and it causes tension and then there has to be some type of forceful presence to try to conjure you into your cell. But in this case they're suffering from severe under staffing. One of the articles we read said that it was as severe as a 35% vacancy, which is about 50 officers. Yeah, officers and Sargeants. So they're, they're really, you know, and sergeants are like the, the first Tier of management. You know, they're on the ground, boots on the ground in the mix, you know. So, basically, they have all of the administrators and nobody to enforce things inside the prison right.

Debbie Jones: 6:34

Yep. So as of 3 pm On Sunday, these 100 individuals refused to return to cell. They instead stayed in common areas. They played cards. They Didn't do anything Harmful to anybody, they just refused to go back. And this was because of not having access to phone time, not having access to the yard or any recreation time Dangerously hot rooms, poor water quality We've also seen things about not being able to shower. All going on and the near record heat in Minnesota over the Labor Day weekend kind of exacerbated this issue even further, causing this you know, formation of protest. So they resolved the issue. I say that kind of I Don't think it's a resolve, but they, they resolved the issue Headed into Tuesday.

Debbie Jones: 7:37

But I think what's important about this is it's not just that incarcerated individuals were Protesting and pushing back on the unfair treatment they were receiving. It was dehumanizing. I mean, let's just call it what it was. They were receiving dehumanizing treatment and not treated as individuals or people. I mean, regardless of staffing issues, you should be able to work out some kind of a rotation where individuals should have access to a shower, access to a phone, access to something that's not a over 100 degrees cell and Not clean water, right? So this caught the attention of people outside of of Prison as well. So folks in Minnesota were On the side of the incarcerated individuals there. News outlets, individuals, abolitionists, activists, all kind of came together to form their own protests in Front of the governor's home, in front of the prison, in front of the you know state house and all of those things. So it's it's not just People inside that are protesting these conditions, but people on the outside that are standing in solidarity and doing so by action and also protesting.

Remie Jones: 8:53

Yeah. So there are some things that I decided to go and investigate because I'm not too familiar with. According to Minnesota's Department of Corrections website, still water is a level four Prison, but it also says it's a close security. So here in Ohio close security is level three. So I haven't found yet what the difference is, but hopefully I will before we're down recording and if not, then maybe I'll you know common on it later.

Remie Jones: 9:26

But the reason why I say that is because in Ohio close security is not maximum and maximum is what you would normally see. Maximum and super maximum is what they call 23 and one. You're locked down in your cell 23 hours a day, which we spoke about a little bit on our episode about solitary confinement. So, with that being said, these inmates aren't used to this. You know this is not normal operating procedure for them to be locked in their cells all the time and not be able to have access to phones, showers and you know other people and One of the articles here on NPR news they had said that a lot, a lot of the inmates, because of the heat, we're just staying in their underwear all day you know, laying on the floor and stuff like that, trying to find you know, cool spaces, and I mean, I would attribute that to exactly what you just said like that's inhumane, mm-hmm.

Remie Jones: 10:32

It's one thing to have done something to deserve that type of treatment, as in, you know, being assigned to a maximum security prison because of the effects of your actions, but Simply because there's nobody to watch you. You know, like that's not your fault, and so for you to be treated like that and it's not often scheduled, you know, lockdown is simply the spur of the moment. They're like, hey, we don't have anybody to work, everybody go lock down. So it's not like you can be like, all right, well, let me go take a shower real quick. Or, you know, let me get something to eat real quick, let me call somebody real quick, because we're gonna be locked down the rest of the day. It's like I just got back from recreation and I'm all sweaty and stinky and now I'm locked in myself for three days, you know right, and there's also no communication with the inmates, as opposed as a far to how long it's gonna last.

Debbie Jones: 11:26

Yeah, there's no predictability. It's just another day of lockdown.

Remie Jones: 11:30

Yeah. And so from my own experience being locked down like this, you know you're standing at the door like oh, I just heard somebody come in the block. You know what's about to happen and you're standing at the door just waiting for somebody to tell you something You're trying to get. And even the CEOs don't know.

Debbie Jones: 11:49

Half the time they're like shit, we don't know, man, I'm just doing around and can you imagine how that was amplified, like with the heat going on with not clean water? So it's not even just like normal lockdown conditions of like this paranoia or whatever, of like when are we gonna get out? But now it's even further, highlighted by extreme heat and no access to anything, including clean water.

Remie Jones: 12:17

That's.

Debbie Jones: 12:18

That's. I mean, we talk about incarceration as a modern form of slavery a lot, but like this is an extreme example of how we are disregarding human beings as human beings just because of our inability to have staff. And I think you know if someone could counter and say, well, if we don't have staff, then it's not safe. But I think that this protest is a really good example of People don't necessarily need 50 more officers to operate in a way that is peaceful or safe. There were no Incidences of violence in this entire protest, right?

Remie Jones: 12:57

None guys paying carts and stuff, and they just simply refused to lock down.

Debbie Jones: 13:01

They just wanted to be out and socialize. They wanted relationship.

Remie Jones: 13:06

I mean. So it's not no, not so much about relationship, I mean the response you get, because we see it every day in police. We see it every day. It's the same in corrections. It's all about the sense of control. When you have an encounter with an officer or corrections officer and they feel like they no longer have control, mass panic sets out within the ranks. So as soon as you say Collectively, we're not locking down Nobody said anything about violence, nobody said anything about like anything bad. It's just we're not about to do what you just told us to do.

Remie Jones: 13:45

Next thing, you know, they're like bringing armed people. We have to respond with force and these guys are sitting around playing cars, you know, and and it's really just about the message of sins. It's not about the socializing, it's not about that. It's about it's a hundred degrees in here and I can't drink the water in my sink, but nobody's gonna tell me anything about when I can go take a shower, when I can get some water. They're bringing around bag meals which are just baloney sandwiches and an apple and a milk. There's no meal options. So if you're like, hey, I'm lactose intolerant or hey, I'm, you know, if you say you don't eat meat. They're gonna give you a PB and J, like it's really the worst.

Remie Jones: 14:27

Yeah so the fact that all this is going on and these supposed to be like the most dangerous of people and the only response that they chose to come what with is and we're not gonna lock down, and that's how they chose to get people's attention, rather than to scream and yell and threaten like kudos to them. Right, you know, kudos to them.

Debbie Jones: 14:50

I think it shows you know, we talk about this a lot too, I think, in other places, like when we talk about democracy and those kinds of things it's when you collectively decide something that it makes an impact. So it's not by force necessarily, it's the collective mindset of a group of people, people saying we're not gonna do that anymore, which overtakes then the few in power. Right, and so it's not violent, it's not Harmful, it's just saying we're not gonna stand up for this anymore. These are our human rights and we should have access to them, regardless of our incarceration status. So two things that we should Kind of expand on, one of which is the protesting that happens or is happening outside of the prison. And then we should talk about the resolution, because they they say it's resolved and it's not necessarily Resolved. I think it's all about how you spin it for the media, right?

Remie Jones: 15:53

so also another kudos to those inside is Having people sending that message outside to garner support on the outside as well, because if they didn't, then the Prison staff could have responded violently. They could have done whatever they wanted to. I mean, we've covered it in, like the Lucasville right episode where they intentionally tried to starve the inmates because they were, you know, protesting. So by getting that outside attention, you know it really helped them, because it's known now that we are peacefully Protesting right so anytime you know they got people outside the governor's house, they got people outside the prison.

Remie Jones: 16:35

They already know. You see, you show some people coming in here in riot shields.

Debbie Jones: 16:39

You know, we know is something suspect, but um dozens of family members and civil rights activists Continue to protest outside of the facility, outside of the governor's home, those kinds of things. They did so more aggressively on Monday when it was still like in process. But just because it has quote-unquote resolved, it hasn't changed that. I think this is a great quote from Marvina Haynes. They say until we get this stuff fixed, we cannot just close our eyes and act like these things didn't happen, which I think is Really crucial. A lot of times there's a lot of movement when the thing is happening, but as soon as it's over, it's like everybody Forgets it happened or like we did it kind of mentality, even though it hasn't really actually changed the situation as heavily as it could. Or the system right Like we. We look at a targeted instance and say, okay, we've made progress here, and then we kind of lose steam, and that's why I appreciate Marvina's quote here. I think that that's just how we can kind of summarize what it is that's happening outside of that.

Debbie Jones: 17:48

Another person who's kind of sounding the alarm on this is Jason Marques soul on LinkedIn. This is actually where I picked up on this story that was happening. He's been kind of sharing some posts About what the realities are for those who are in Inside of the East unit in Stillwater, and so he has been sharing what it is that's going on, even though he's not necessarily right there in person. So he's discussing the human rights violations that are occurring. He's kind of saying, hey, everybody's back in their cells, but here's the Next piece that's going on, here's who you can contact and I think that those things are also really important of Somebody just saying if you disagree with what's happening, here's what you need to do. Here are actionable steps, because so often we just say like in solidarity, and then we move on. So for him to say, yes, we're in solidarity, we don't agree with what's happening, here's what you can do about it. That's the the action oriented piece that sometimes is missing from protests.

Remie Jones: 18:55

So I think, with this, this specific case of peaceful protests, that there there has to be some real resolution, right, because you, you know, like you said, it's usually like something that passes quickly. As soon as somebody says like finally agrees to do something, we're like all right, everybody go home. You know, but until it actually gets done, like it's, it's not gonna get better. And in this particular case, I think that that's especially the case because it Directly affects the underlying cause, which is short staffing. Like it's not just about the inmates, you know, yeah, it's pretty messed up that the inmates are locked in there, but you also have staff members that are not willing to do the job because of those conditions.

Remie Jones: 19:52

You know, like it's not just inmates in there in 100 degree heat, right without access to clean water. I mean, sure, I could bring a bottle of water or something like that, but if I can't go over to the sink or something and get something to drink, or if I'm sitting here on shift we got to be walking around and you expect me to be, you know, good at my job and all I'm worried about is, god damn, it's hot in here. You know, I'm trying to find somewhere to sit and be real still so, when all these people that are like, oh, it's about, you know, safety and security, and so these inmates can't be doing this, like, even if they didn't, it's not gonna be safe.

Debbie Jones: 20:30

When the Corrections officer is just like you know man, fuck this shit.

Remie Jones: 20:35

I ain't trying to do nothing because it's hot. So even if they were to be like, all right, we're gonna fix this and they don't, they're not gonna improve their employment rates, they're not gonna be able to put this back together.

Debbie Jones: 20:49

You know, and it's clear that the facilities kind of fallen apart. When you and I were doing some more digging, we found that incarcerated folks can only have visits on Tuesdays and you can't visit on holidays, which is like that's nuts, that's criminal. So clearly these and it's on their like department website. So this has been going on long enough to have an updated website that reflects those changes. So clearly this. This has been a problem for a while and we're just kind of at the uprising point of it.

Debbie Jones: 21:20

I was doing some looking at with the spokesperson for the prison had, said the DOC spokesperson, andy Scougman, and While he also said you know the situation is calm, peaceful, stable throughout the day, that the crisis negotiating team was involved and and all of those things, I think it's important to highlight that they didn't really give any response to how are we gonna fix the issues that are going on inside. All All that Andy said was we've got things in motion, we're looking at it. They were in to that. The prison is gonna remain on lockdown Until not only the DOC has done their investigation into the incident, but until they can fix the problems and that's it. That's the only Component. That is. That's why. That's why you know, resolved has been in quotes for me this whole time. Because it's not resolved. The Individuals are back in their cells, but now they're on lockdown.

Debbie Jones: 22:21

A as a punishment, but B because nothing was solved right and so it's not really like I Wouldn't call it a resolve and I wouldn't say that the DOC is being transparent in how they're going to fix it. They're just saying we've got stuff in motion.

Remie Jones: 22:36

What.

Debbie Jones: 22:38

What does that mean? Tell us your actual plan. And Then Chanel, who is and let me find their first name, I think it's Paul does that Paul? Yes, the OC commissioner, paul Chanel, has been the one who's kind of leading the press conferences and those kinds of things. Chanel said also that their their primary focus right now is staffing. They want to fix their staffing so that we can open up more programming, which is exactly what the concerns of the incarcerated people are. While I think that those individuals would love to have their programming back, it sounds like the immediate need is they want access to a shower and clean water and being able to call home and Not having it be a hundred degrees in their you know, half-size bathroom boxes.

Remie Jones: 23:31

Right, I am. I'm actually kind of surprised about this because in situations like this it's always a very important part Of the whole situation is controlling the flow of information, right?

Remie Jones: 23:47

so Intentionally, they'll make sure that inmates don't get access to telephones or visits or, you know, they'll make sure that no staff members can speak to the news or anything like that right well, I'm surprised because we found a few different articles where staff members or former staff members were given interviews and you know, paul Chanel was given an interview or given public announcements and stuff like that, when usually it's kind of like we're working on it and we're under negotiation. It's just very vague, you know. Whereas I Saw, I think was a CBS news article where they admitted that the air conditioning was inadequate, you know so they're, they're admitting I'm they admit that the employment numbers are down.

Remie Jones: 24:34

And and in this article that I just spoke of, the CBS news article, there's a former correction officer named Maria Alanda and she already said, like with the conditions that they're there in you know, like it's already bad enough. Everybody knows their short staff, I. But then when you like basically wake up in the morning, like yeah, I gotta go to work, you're asking yourself, like do I wanna go deal with this shit? It's 100 degrees and I know about it being there by myself. And so they call off. And since they're already under staff and now they got call offs, it's like cancel everything, cancel programming, cancel this, cancel that.

Remie Jones: 25:18

You know you can't go work in the child hall, like I said, you're getting back lunches Like there's only so much of that that even the staff can put up with. Like if it was an isolated incident, like oh, inmates are on staff and so we have to operate like this. That's different, but it's already bad, and now it's getting worse, like I don't need this. And then you start I'm not gonna lie, everybody knows you start questioning yourself like they don't even pay me enough to deal with this shit. Man, you know, I don't know what their pay is like. But I'm just saying I will probably be questioning myself like how much is it worth?

Debbie Jones: 25:56

Well, I mean, I think I think it's fine that they're admitting fault, but I think that it gets really easy to admit fault and then not change anything. I think we've made it really easy, especially in press conferences, to be like I take full responsibility of my actions, I'm so sorry that this happened, and then not do anything after that because you did the apology part and that's the part that people cared about. You know what I mean, so you know. I think Marvina again ended this article that I read with a quote and it really stuck out to me in terms of what happens from here. And she said how emotional and terrifying the incidents was. And she said, while the jail has told us that everything ended peacefully, we're not actually sure because we still haven't had the opportunity to speak to any of our loved ones inside, and I think that that says it all right.

Debbie Jones: 26:56

They issued this big public apology. They said we resolved the protest. Everybody's back in their cells. Accordingly, there are no safety issues and we take full responsibility for our actions. And still nobody's allowed to call home.

Remie Jones: 27:13

It sounds like there never were any safety issues. No, they like to tout that like oh man, it's all about safety.

Debbie Jones: 27:18

We resolved this without any harm. You gonna take credit. How are you?

Remie Jones: 27:21

gonna take credit for everybody being safer to return to their cells when nobody was ever harmed or threatened, right, you know?

Debbie Jones: 27:28

So that's the piece that stands out to me is we resolved it, it's all better, and yet these loved ones on the outside who continue to protest are continuing to protest because they still haven't gotten to talk to their loved ones. There have been no communication with their people on the inside. Are things actually okay or not? You know what I mean? That's the lack of transparency and the lack of change that I think is crucial.

Remie Jones: 27:56

I would say no, it's not all better, because I can actually play this clip maybe if I can get it inserted here. But there was the news, not really interview, but there was a mother who was speaking to the news about her son and they labeled him the ringleader, you know. Yes, because they couldn't charge everybody who had peacefully protests, they decided to grab two people and put them in the hole and charged them like officially charged them with rioting, and so he was able to somehow get this message out to his mother that he was in the hole and that he was being charged, and so she decided to go to the news with it. Because how do you charge?

Debbie Jones: 28:49

two people. Yeah, two out of a hundred.

Remie Jones: 28:52

Out of a hundred with rioting.

Debbie Jones: 28:54

When there wasn't an actual riot or violence, or so they said that they were uncompliant because they didn't go back into their cells. When everybody decided they were gonna go back in, right at the resolve of the issue, two people were still outside of their cell and so they got grabbed and immediately taken to the hole without any kind of commute, like they weren't able to explain why they weren't in their cells or anything, but there were no resistance, they weren't trying to do anything. So we wanted to end this episode, I guess, with kind of a call to action. We're gonna drop this information in our show notes, if you feel so, led to reach out to the commissioner of corrections in Minnesota and let them know, hey, this news has reached wherever it is you're listening from and that you disagree. If you wanna take that step past solidarity and saying, oh, that sucks for them and actually contribute, we're gonna drop the phone number and the email that you can kind of voice those concerns to Other places that you can continue to stay up to date, because this is happening right now.

Debbie Jones: 30:03

So, depending on when you listen to this episode, there might be additional things that have unfolded. So places you can stay up to date, like I said, if you're on LinkedIn Jason Marquet Sol S-O-L-E is the go-to for kind of giving you those live updates, but also CVS, npr all of those places are giving live updates on the concerns that are happening right now and still water. So we just wanted to bring more awareness and call attention to this because it's too much. It happens over and over again, and while we very much disagree with mass incarceration, we do agree with incarcerated folks' rights to stand up for themselves. Everybody has human rights, regardless of incarceration status, and so we wanna stop the dehumanizing, stop the inhumane treatment and allow folks basic needs.

Remie Jones: 31:03

Yeah, I agree, that's it.

Debbie Jones: 31:07

That's all I had to say. How about you? Anything you wanna end on in terms of all of this that you read?

Remie Jones: 31:14

No, I mean with me it always hits close, because I've been through these types of situations. Right it's, I don't know, it's just hard to even think about, because I know that when it all actually resolves like when it really resolves and which, in this situation, is far from resolution- till.

Debbie Jones: 31:41

They get their staffing up.

Remie Jones: 31:42

It's going to be what it is, but from the lockdown experiences that I had, like when the doors finally open, it's chaos, you know. It's chaos because everybody wants to run to the phone, everybody wants to run to the microwave, everybody wants to run to the shower and it's like instant. Everybody's online at one place at one time. And that's when it starts to kind of get unsafe, because you gotta do is like yo, I've been waiting here, you just cut, you know. Or somebody feels like their phone call to their mother or their girl or whatever is like more important, and they're like yo, can I go real quick? Somebody says yes, but three people behind somebody says no and all of a sudden you gotta fight, you know. So, yeah, it's really hard, you know.

Remie Jones: 32:31

As all these memories of these situations come back, I hope they really do like wholeheartedly, put some effort into resolving the issue, and not only with just this instance of standing up for themselves, but also with the under staffing. Like what is the reason for the under staffing? You know, in one article they said it might be because of the correctional workers union negotiations, or you know what. We'll see, what we'll try to maybe do an update, but I'm for sure going to be watching for more news as it comes in. Like DJ said, we're gonna put some links in the show notes. You guys feel free to click those links to follow along or do your own Research and, as always, you know if you've got, if just continue to think about these folks.

Debbie Jones: 33:35

Like I mean, it's important that we continue to remember the conditions that folks are living in, especially through incarceration, but this is, this is extreme. So please continue to think about not just the individuals that are going through it firsthand, but their family members, who are on the outside awaiting communication and continuing to voice their concerns for their loved ones. Just just keep it all in your mind, that's it.

Remie Jones: 34:04

I'd like to call action of people that are showing up for work there, because there were some instances where they said, like how uncomfortable it made them Sure after working there.

Debbie Jones: 34:14

That's true.

Remie Jones: 34:16

And one lady said it made her really uncomfortable. She was the one that said most of the inmates just lay around in their underwear and lay on the floor and stuff, trying to stay cool. So it's like not only can I imagine like being a woman CEO around, you got all these dudes that are like, damn, they're totally naked because they're so hot, but then also see them like they're so hot that they're trying to lay on the bare concrete floor because it's cooler or you know whatever, and it's like I imagine that at least some of these people have some type of human, you know humanity, humanity inside them and they're like, damn, I wish I could do something to help, yep, but I can't because I got to follow orders.

Remie Jones: 34:58

Yeah, that's a really good point. So, yeah, just I like to call out to them and, just like you know, I understand you got a job to do. I understand it's a hard job and it's probably an underappreciated job, but don't make it harder than it has to be. You know, like we all got to be there. Let's all make it the best of a bad situation. Agreed, yeah, so with that I'm done, I'm out.

Debbie Jones: 35:28

That's it for us.

Remie Jones: 35:30

All right Peace.

Debbie Jones: 35:31

Bye. The Lockdown to Legacy podcast is proud to be a part of the Buzzsprout podcast community network. Lockdown to Legacy is recorded at Kohatch in their lovely audio file room. Thanks for your scholarship. Audio engineering is done by our very own Remy Jones. You can reach us with any feedback, questions or comments, or share the love by emailing stories at lockdown, the number two legacy dot com. Stories at lockdown to legacy dot com. You can reach out there too for a free sticker, and you can find us on Instagram and Twitter with the handle at lockdown to legacy and on Facebook at the Lockdown to Legacy podcast. Thanks for listening.